Dune Part 5 - Dinner, Danger, and Deceit

A dinner on Arrakis reveals the politics of the planet's upper echelon, subtleties of culture and faith and customs, and the goals of trade and ecology collide. 

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome Back & Stakes Of Momentum
• 1:36 Setting The Table For Intrigue
• 6:20 The Arrakeen Dinner Begins
• 15:45 Water Customs And Power Plays
• 24:30 Kynes, Prophecy, And Jessica’s Read
• 33:10 Verbal Duels With Banker And Smuggler
• 41:55 Ecology Dreams Versus Spice Economics
• 50:20 Duke’s Exit And Paul’s Test As Host
• 58:40 Code Words, Canley, And Shifting Loyalties
• 1:07:30 Midnight Disturbance: Idaho’s Fall
• 1:16:10 Jessica Vs Thufir: The Voice Unleashed
• 1:26:40 Ominous Signs And Biblical Echoes
• 1:32:30 The Betrayal Revealed: Remember The Tooth

Transcript

Welcome Back & Stakes Of Momentum

Michael Kentris 0:06

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Brothers Reading Books, your sci-fi fantasy slash literature book club. I am uh your host, uh Michael Kentris, and I am joined as always by my co-host, my dear brother. Will Kentras. Hey, how's it going, Will? It's going pretty well, Michael. How about you? I'm really tired. You know, we were we're talking right before we hit recording. But, you know, we I was we we the listeners won't know this, but we were a little delayed on this recording. So uh to all of you out there in digital land, this will sound like an uninterrupted uh timeline due to our pre-recording. But I didn't want any more time to pass, lose the momentum. It's very easy for these projects to fade out. And uh I'm glad that I have my dear brother here with me. So that uh, you know, you don't let these things, if you're doing it by yourself, it's very easy to kind of fall away and let things fall by the wayside. So uh thank you for doing this with me, Will. I'm always glad to be your accountability buddy. So, Will, give us uh so we're going through a few more chapters today. Yeah. Just give us like the uh 50,000-foot view on what we're covering. Absolutely. So in the previous episode, just in just as a brief recap, we had just left off the failed mining, uh sand mining expedition where you know Kynes was introduced. Great scene. I loved that scene. Great scene. And so now we transition to a slightly different pace. So in chapter 16, we're kind of following the aristocracy of Arrakis uh as they host this great dinner by Duke Leto and Lady Jessica, and you know, all the banter that kind of ensues during that. And then in chapter 17, kind of shortly after the dinner, during the night after the Lady Jessica kind of hears a disturbance and then has a very tense conversation with Thufer. And then in chapter 18, we will finally be seeing the vile betrayal by we know, but the characters do not. So yeah. So this chapter, I thought, yeah, it it is quite a change in tone. You know, we are very much in this political intrigue stage going into this first chapter here. And uh, as we keep saying, I think almost every episode since it showed up in the book, you know, it's feints within feints within feints. The author is really maintaining that that feeling of what are people saying? What is the meaning behind the words? And uh it's just like continuously throughout this chapter you get all these little looks inside people's heads as you know, one character says something, the other one says, like, well, I wonder, he thought. You know, all this kind of stuff, you know, in the the italics here. And um Yeah, it's it's a it's a fairly complicated scene. It's fairly complex, a lot of shifting perspectives, a lot of it's setting up, I think, a lot of the dynamics between these characters, like fleshing them out a little bit, uh giving some internal perspective, and uh again, just kind of painting the backdrop of what is the culture of Arrakis like. You know, my uh my wife and I have been watching, we've been re-watching Downton Abbey. We watched the first season or two uh way back when, and we never finished it. So we've been re-watching it, and this scene here very much gives me that flavor, as you said, you know, of kind of like an aristocratic dinner with like uh, you know, people sitting next to each other at a long table and kind of having these uh you know little pointed conversations with little uh barbs, like you know, trying to be polite enough not to, you know, cause offense, but still like causing offense. So it's it's very much of that piece. Yeah, a lot of these conversations, very much the point seems to be like who can get you know that little last jab in without stepping on the toes too much. It it definitely is, yeah, kind of a very competitive conversation piece. And uh to your point also, I know he's already done this a few times earlier in this book, but the frequent shifting of perspectives, the it takes me a sentence or two usually because, wait, why okay, now we're from Duke Leto, nor Jessica, so it it does shift pretty frequently, and there's not a whole lot to kind of uh preempt you to take into account this new perspective. At least not in the version that I'm reading. Right. Because I think I think we do get perspective point of view from, like you said, uh the Duke, Paul, Lady Jessica, and uh also Dr. Kines. Yes. I think that's everybody in this particular scene. But but yeah, it is it's a lot of hopping around within a relatively short period of time. You know, it it gives you a feel of kind of a like even though this is like a dinner conversation, the feeling of a very fast-paced, like very frenetic kind of thing. So it's it's an interesting way to kind of make it feel very active, even though there isn't necessarily that much action taking place. There is a lot of dialogue though. Yes. A lot of dialogue. Let me flip that around. As always, we're kind of starting off here with another passage from a work by Princess Arulin, and um talking about greatness. I thought this was an interesting one. It's a transitory experience, but I like this ending to it. The sardonic is all that permits him to move within himself. Without this quality, even occasional greatness will destroy a man. Which I kind of took to like if you take yourself too seriously, you're in for trouble. But uh Right. Right. You can't what's I'm trying to think of what the phrase is. You can't, yeah, kind of get drunk on your own material or your own resources. Exactly, yes, yes, exactly. So once you start believing it, it's like, oh, that's a bit of a problem now. Yeah, if you think you're great, you know. What's that uh I think was it uh in Julius Caesar Shakespeare's where there's the the prophet going along behind Caesar during his triumph upon entering Rome? Remember thou art mortal. Yes. I don't remember if it's Shakespeare or if it was some other source, but uh you know, that that whole vibe, right? To again write, you aren't mortal. Right, you will die.

William Kentris 6:18

Yes.

The Arrakeen Dinner Begins

Michael Kentris 6:19

So we get this opening again, and this is the I think it the second or third time we've had this reference to the black bull's head with its bloody horns and the darkly glistening oil painting of the old Duke. So again, right, the the Duke is looking again at these reminders of his own father's death. And again, right, like it ties right into that passage of Remember Thou art mortal, or, you know, Mementum Urai. And you definitely get this sense in the last couple of chapters, or I should say several chapters, that the Duke very much has his doom on his mind, you know, his uh his potential death with all the stress and uh plots and all this sorts of things. So it's uh a nice illustration that he's kind of reflecting on this still. Absolutely. And I mean it even goes further on where it references having a poison snooper, you know, concealed within the shit, what is it, the upper shadows? So just right. And even the way they describe it, not necessarily in in this chapter, but uh previously where they describe it like as a dead insect with its limbs limp, you know, hanging over the table, which again, right, kind of like if we want to be all symbolic. The dinner table, a place of gathering, a place where you share a meal, um, you know, oftentimes considered a celebration of life. Many cultures give thanks to, you know, a higher power, you know, a prayer to God prior to and after consuming a meal. So we have instead this figure that is representing this like dead creature that is there to detect poison. So kind of like antithetical to life in a way, or at least the threat to life from something that should be life-giving. So I don't know. It's uh you can always go like super deep into this if you really want to. Like how much is just projection versus what's actually in there. But I think I think that one's not too far of a stretch. No, absolutely. And I feel like it does kind of touch on that a little bit there in that next passage where he thinks to himself you can plumb us by our language, and he goes on to rant about all the different types of poisons there, where you know, language litter is kind of like a function to serve as communication between people. It's formed by necessity to kind of communicate what is in your everyday, what is relevant. So the fact that poison kind of seems to be a kind of a constant reminder of like, hey, these are enemies, we need to be aware. Right. And that that's very that's uh I think a really great point, Will, is that if something is occurring often enough, a culture develops a word for it. And here we have like chalmerky poison in the drink, and chamas poison in the food. I I looked these up. I don't think I think these are invented words uh in in this universe, uh, to the best of my ability. You know, if anyone finds otherwise, please write in, let us know. BrothersReadingbooks at gmail.com. But uh yeah, it's it's as you said, right? There's different cultures that have different words for different things that don't necessarily translate one-to-one into other languages, like uh you know, I think German and Greek. Plenty, plenty of uh languages have words like this. And uh it's it's a fascinating concept, I think at least. Absolutely. Distortion of languages. So they start setting the scene here, right? They're they're setting up for for this dinner. And the we kind of get this background information that uh the Duke had been getting explained from the housekeeper about like local customs, essentially. And you get this description as the guests, as they enter, dip their hands ceremoniously into a basin, slop several cups of water onto the floor, dry their hands on a towel, and fling the towel into the growing puddle at the door. After the dinner, beggars gathered outside to get water squeezings from the towels. And uh the Duke thinks, how typical of a Harkonnen fief, every degradation of the spirit that can be conceived. Right? So we we know that how valuable water is in this world. We've we've talked on that several times, and we'll continue to talk about it uh many times more, because I don't think that theme's going away. Yes. But yeah, it's like uh this is water that was used for cleaning. It is now from the floor and it's being collected for beggars to like suck the water out of these rags. Yeah, no, it's it definitely, like he says, it is very in a very very degradative to just the whole idea of how valuable water is, how crucial it is to life on this planet. And yeah, he took a deep breath, feeling rage tie in his stomach, and he basically mutters, the custom stops here. And he's talking to the serving woman next to him, and it seems like she's offering to him to help wash his hands, but he's like, no, get rid of everything, get rid of it, we're not doing it. And she tries to protest, and it seemed like she even kind of becomes angry about the removal of these basins, but he's just like, no, we're just going to give the water directly to the beggars. Right. And then he's like, Oh, you know, she's probably selling it, you know. So he's like cutting out her her graft, essentially. And um basically says, like, I'm gonna post a guard to make sure you follow my orders because he's not trusting this lady. And I I just love this sentence here. Memories roll in his mind like the toothless mutterings of old women. And that's still such an evocative sentence, you know. Um if you think of again, right, kind of in my work, I work with people who have dementia fairly often. And you know, to me, that's a very concrete image. You know, you kind of get this nonsensical, like stream of consciousness sort of thing sometimes where people are just saying things and maybe they're old memories, maybe they're things that never happen. And uh again, right, it's it's very evocative. If anyone's had like a family member or a close friend of the family who's developed dementia, you kind of know what that's like, where it's just uh it's this kind of like uh susseration almost of sound. Like it it's like it should make sense, but it doesn't necessarily. No, absolutely. I do feel like it's very kind of archetypical to the crone character that I feel like we see in a lot of types of literature and media where yeah, it's it's someone who isn't quite all there. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And this other part here, I'm getting old, he thought. I felt the cold hand of my mortality. And in what? In old woman's greed. So again, just kind of emphasizing that he is, he's kind of ruminating on his death here. Yes, so we kind of progress further into the room, and so in the great hall, we're see Lady Jessica. She's standing in front of a fireplace, and she is let's see, talking to a bunch of different people there. So we get a lot of kind of a brief introduction to this upper echelon of the Aragus Society. So we've got uh still suit manufacturers, electronics equipment importers, a representative of the Guild Bank, uh, just a bunch of different people who are kind of milling around with her, decked out in extravagant clothing, jewels, gems, all that sort of thing. Yes, kind of the the upper crust here. Yes. And then we get a long description of the Lady Jessica here. Yeah, so she wore no jewelry and it chose in warm colors, a long dress, almost the shade of the open blaze, and an earth brown band around her bronzed hair. Yeah, I do like this next part. He realized she had done this to taunt him subtly a reproof against his recent pose of coldness. She was well aware that he liked her best in these shades. Yeah. Right. So uh just to remind everybody, there's been this kind of distance or, you know, uh pretended coldness between the Duke and Lady Jessica after uh Thufer found that letter. And so you know, we kind of get her um repost, if you will, in this moment where she's making herself even more attractive uh to him. And it kind of an interesting thing, right? We're on a desert planet. Now, I we all know deserts can get cold, but I just thought it was interesting that we have here a fireplace that is going. I presume it's burning wood, which would be very rare and valuable also. Right? So we're getting kind of all these displays of wealth here as well. Oh, that's actually a really good point. I hadn't thought about that, but I didn't until just now.

unknown 15:11

Huh.

Water Customs And Power Plays

Kynes, Prophecy, And Jessica’s Read

Michael Kentris 15:11

Interesting. So yeah, kind of to your point though, there's that whole ruse going on between the two of them. Although, again, only the Duke and Paul are aware of this deception. So we have Duncan Idaho nearby acting as a bodyguard, but again, he has been summoned back from the Fremen under the pretext of guarding her, but you will keep the Lady Jessica under constant surveillance. So again, the Duncan I believe that there is legitimate suspicions being thrown upon Lady Jessica here. Right. We see Paul surrounded by a fawning group of younger Ericine Richers. And uh three officers of the house troop, you know, he's being reserved and noble. And again, the Duke thinks he'll wear the title well, realizing with a sudden chill this was another thought of death. So yeah, it's uh it's a we get all this rumination on death. Death, death, death. And it's there's just in this book, just such this sense of inevitability. And we've talked about it previously. I just find it very fascinating how a story can project what is going to happen. It tells you what's going to happen. But as you drive towards the event itself, it's still able to hold your interest and still build the tension, right? Because you it's one of those things where perhaps there's a an innate human need to defy face. And so you keep thinking, maybe they will be able to throw off that uh that weight, that uh that burden. But uh so far, right, to this point, that has not happened. So it's just uh I just find it a very I'm not quite sure how he's managing it from a storytelling perspective, but it's it's being done quite well. And you just feel that tension just closing in and in almost like you're there. I I do think there is something to be said specifically about knowing what's going to happen versus knowing how it's going to happen. So even though we kind of have been given the high notes already, knowing what's going to happen in between those kind of bullet points of information, I feel like definitely helps kind of catapult the story forward. Yeah, we've been given this promise of what's going to happen, and now it's kind of being delivered in a kind of very evocative way where yeah, we're kind of brought in and kept um in focus. I know there was uh some discourse online uh a little bit ago with some of the uh tech bros saying, like, uh, oh, we can create an AI summary of uh, you know, crime and punishment you can read in five minutes. That's not the point of reading a book like Crime and Punishment. Right? It's like yeah, you can find out what happens in the story in just a couple of minutes. Wikipedia's been around for ages. But but the point is to kind of experience what is going on, right? Like there's all these other studies showing that like reading and listening to stories increases human empathy and changes it changes you. And that's uh that's kind of the point as far as that goes, is to I think we said this in our first episode, right? The man who who doesn't read lives what but one life, the man who does can live a thousand. Um something to that effect. Was that the George R. Martin quote if I remember right? Yes. And yeah, it's it's very true, right? That's the whole point is to develop empathy for your your your fellow man and um to better understand people. And that's I think you know on my on my science fiction side of things, I think that's the really good part of science fiction, or speculative fiction if you want to use the broader term, is that it uh the science, like, yeah, sure, it can be hard, it can be ho soft science fiction, but the point being that it's it's about speculating what would people do with such abilities. And I think that's what really good sci-fi does. Um more so than like, oh, this is really cool technology. Yeah. I agree. It definitely seems to focus a lot more on the human element, on how it's adapted to that new society or any sort of significant changes that have occurred based on, yeah, this proposed piece of new technology or event that has occurred. Yes. Anyway, uh after that diversion there. Um but uh but I like this bit here, right? So again, we we're shifting perspectives rapidly during this chapter. So now we're jumping over to Paul, and again, there's some of the words and the the the word craft here is is very evocative. So we get to seeing all the chattering faces, Paul was suddenly repelled by them. They were cheap masks, locked on festering thoughts, voices gabbling to drown out the loud silence in every breast. And uh, right? I mean Just like, ugh, everything's fake around me. It's hollow. This means nothing. These people aren't. We kind of had had this earlier, like from chapter one, like, you know, are you an animal or are you a human? And it's kind of the same thing here, just kind of, I think, subtly rephrased. Yes, absolutely. And so, yeah, he kind of further that point, says, I'm in a sour mood, or thinks to himself, I'm in a sour mood. And he kind of thinks more about kind of the source of why he's in a sour mood beyond just being kind of surrounded by these sycophants. And so it kind of is that idea that, you know, his father's death is still looming on his mind. He hadn't wanted to attend the function, but his father had been firm. You have a place, position to uphold. You're old enough to do this, you're almost a So again, just emphasizing again that Paul, even though he's only 16, is kind of being thrust into this position of authority, of power, because, again, the Duke's inevitable demise is inevitable. So they keep telling us. So they keep telling us. So we start getting some verbal jousting here with uh one of the water shippers talking about the change in the custom and you know, is that a ducal order? And he says, I will leave that to your own conscience. Yeah, we kind of get this is where we start getting kind of the words behind the words stuff going on here. Does he imply that criticism of our custom? This custom has been changed, Lita said. They kind of go into customs. So this is a kind of a nice way to both expand the world and also talk about different customs, different senses of morality in these different cultures. Absolutely. And then eventually, let's see here. So, yeah, we're kind of introduced to who this watershipper actually is. His name is Alingar Butte. Remember the name? The Harkinans used him, but never fully controlled him. That was in uh how it's kind of memo to the Duke, kind of on people of note at this dinner. And so one of the things that Butte kind of does to kind of jab at the Duke and Lady Jessica is inquiring about what they plan to do with the conservatory, the water conservatory attached to the house. And then do you intend to continue flaunting it in the people's faces? Dot dot dot, my lord. You know, obviously being a little slow there on the honorifics. Yeah. And so she gives a pretty clever answer, saying that she's only going to hold it in trust for the people of Arrakis. So kind of like a um if anyone's familiar with the seed vaults that are up, I want to say it's in Norway, is that right? That sounds right. Somewhere in northern Europe. Yes. But there's these these genetic seed vaults, like in you know, worldwide global disasters, there's these vaults of all the genetic plants that could potentially be used to repopulate uh, you know, the flora of certain regions of the world. So kind of like in that same wall, right? It's like a vault, essentially. And we kind of jumped down a little bit here, and Leto notices that Kynes is staring at the Lady Jessica. He appeared transfigured, like a man in love or caught in a religious trance. So again, if I if I may, all before we get to that, Kines' thoughts were overwhelmed by the words of prophecy, and they shall share your most precious dream. And he spoke directly to Jessica. Do you bring the shortening of the way? So, as we mentioned in a previous uh episode, this is the, and I'm gonna mispronounce it as I always do, the quitzats hatarach, uh, roughly translated as the sh the one who is the shortening of the way. Um, we kind of get, all right, even though Kines keeps mentally saying, you know, Freeman's superstition, et cetera, et cetera, we keep seeing that he has these almost intrusive thoughts about these Freeman prophecies whenever he's interacting with the Duke's family. So I find that very interesting. And, you know, it's, I think, very appropriate, at least uh on my particular religious calendar. We just this last week had the Feast of the Transfiguration. So for those who aren't familiar, when we talk about like transfiguration, at least in the Christian sense, it's uh it was the event in the Gospels where you know Jesus goes up on Mount Tabor and he brings Peter, James, and John with him, you know. And so he goes up on this mountain and all of a sudden he's uh you know kind of bathed in light, and then Moses and Elijah appear next to him on this mountain. And so it's like a a revelation, essentially, right? So it it does have, you know, like they say here, a religious trance. And uh so it's this kind of shining forth of divinity in a way, if we are taking the word transfigure at its most literal, fundamental, at least in Western culture, meaning. So again, right, I particularly enjoy the way that uh Frank Herbert leans into this religious terminology because it's very evocative. Absolutely. No, I mean it does play a very vital role here as, you know, we are reinforced once again with kind of this almost subconscious zealotry that Kynes has, as well as we can assume a lot of the Fremen do, just based on their cultural upbringing. So it does seem to be very interesting, yeah, how crucial of a role that is playing will likely play as we continue going forward, as they lean more and more into kind of Paul being this messianonic messianic messianic. There we go, figure. So we jump back to the ditter scene, and so Butte and Kynes kind of have like a little verbal clash as well, where you know, Butte being, you know, presumably some sort of off-world jerk says, Ah, Dr. Kynes, you've come in from tramping around with your mobs of Fremen, how gracious of you. And then Kines just responds, it is said in the desert that possession of water in great amount can inflict a man with fatal carelessness. It's like, uh they have many strange sayings in the desert, Buttes said, but his voice betrayed uneasiness. Right, right, right. So obviously some of them is kind of like a threat, almost. Yes. Which I mean, kind of is almost delivered later on in this dinner. More explicitly, yes. Yeah. But yeah, it's uh a prelude of things to come. Absolutely. Yes. Obviously, he does not care for this butte. So yeah, then we get uh Lady Jessica's internal monologue here about the Quisette's Hatterash again, and like, do they plant that legend here, the missionaria protectiva? And um fans her secret hope for Paul. And uh it's it's interesting. So this kind of juxtaposition of we have here a character who, again, right, is kind of like uh denying of any influence of prophecy on himself, and then someone who is incredibly cynical in as much as she is aware that her organization likely planted these legends here millennia ago. And so, again, right, it's like she believes that the people believe this, but it's that it's it's kind of this weird thing where it's like it's a synthetic myth, but it is in fact having an effect on the actions of people in reality. And it's I'm kind of groping around the edges of it, but it's this kind of thing where it's like, what effect does myth and legend and religion, you know, whether you believe or not, have on a culture and on its people as far as the actions they take and the motivations they have. And I think it's a really interesting way to play with those kind of two perspectives about essentially what is the same story from vastly different, you know, vastly different perspectives. Right. Even though this has obviously been kind of manufactured by the Ben Age, it does kind of also stand to a legit point of legitimacy in that they do seem to be hitting all of the marks that have been set out for them. Obviously, you know, not intentionally by Paul since he is unaware of a lot of this kind of history of Arrakis and the myths and whatnot that have been kind of initiated on this planet centuries, millennia ago. But, you know, you know, Cayenne's is basically like, man, he's doing all the things that they're supposed to be doing, and that's really cool. Right, right. So we move on to the dinner.

unknown 28:56

Yes.

Verbal Duels With Banker And Smuggler

Michael Kentris 28:57

Again, we get some internal monologue, but I find it interesting when they they go to uh well, they introduce some more characters. I guess we should start with that. So they they kind of introduce the smuggler, Esmar Tweak. And uh again, we kind of get this introduction, he's a little bit rough, grizzled-looking fellow, and uh doesn't quite fit in with the others. Absolutely. And then, yeah, he was invited by Gurney specifically, just because again, Gurney kind of understands the importance of getting into the goodwill of this smugglers' association, just from an economic standpoint, as well as potentially a trying to save ourselves at the last second, uh, kind of stance as well, you know, because again, there is this traitor that they know about, but you know, if things should come to the worst, it's like I want there to be at least an out for most of us to get out of here. And the smugglers are going to be the best way for that to happen. Right. Fast ships, sneaky ways. Yes. And then he also mentions, why didn't you invite some Fremen? And Lady Jessica's like, well, there's kinds. And I feel like, again, this is once more kind of elucidating his hope for building relations with the Fremen. As again, he is he's got only so many baskets to put his eggs in, and so he wants to make sure that they are properly stocked. So he wants to build this goodwill with the Fremen as this uh potential military force, again, should the Empire or should the Harkinans come in force. No. Very true, very true. So they give to the table, the Duke says, Some question my changing of a laving or leaving basin custom. This is my way of telling you that many things will change. As a chevalier of the Imperium, then I give you a toast. Here I am and here I remain. And so he takes his flagon and basically just dumps it on the ground. And so this is uh very dramatic thing, right? Again, with the water here. And then I find it interesting they they describe all the reactions of these other people with this. And uh, you know, some people hands shaking, uh, some people, was it kinds, uh like stows the water into like a like a flask or something under his jacket. Right. And uh and Lady Jessica sees him, he just gives her a wink. So, you know, some uh some light-hearted uh roguishness there. But uh yeah, it was it was very interesting. And I know I jumped ahead a little bit here, but uh I don't know if we do we want to talk about all the food? Everything's got melange in it, except for some of the Kaladin dishes. Uh yeah, I think probably the only thing really to kind of point out is one that yeah, melange is in most of the food. And again, described as having a rich cinnamon odor, despite that initial description of it having a different flavor, taste each time you were exposed to it and that initial introduction of it. But uh that a lot of the dishes do seem to be from Kaladin. So and then people, you know, just like, oh, how novel. I you must simply you simply must give me the recipe. Right, right. Which you know doesn't sound forced or false at all. Right. So yes. The other reactions here, right? This was clean, potable water, not already cast away in a sopping towel. Reluctance to just discard it, expose itself in trembling hands, delayed reactions, nervous laughter, and violent obedience to the necessity. It's right a very political move, right? It's like who will obey the order without hesitation, etc. etc. So yeah, it's uh it it's very interesting how the others react there. But um But yeah, uh at one point Jessica notes like his behavior seems off and it's like they must think that he's drunk. And so again, right, we get this um this separation that's occurred over them over the last, you know, so much time that has made her think that maybe she's you know he's he's off balance in some way, something's going on. This is the one thing that I think is a little discordant as far as the way that Lady Jessica has been portrayed and will be portrayed with her Benny Gesserit training, is that she's normally very attuned to reading people with whom she is familiar in particular. So the fact that perhaps the person she is most familiar with she is not reading correctly, seems a bit out of character. I will I will say that. So, like, would would the Duke's deception, you know, this was, I think, maybe a conversation point, would the Duke's deception even have been effective on the Lady Jessica at any point, given what we know about, you know, she doesn't have the the truth uh speaking ability, but she can detect falseness and things like that. So I don't know, what do you think, Will? I think to an extent it would, because again, kind of her judgment has been clouded with the duke since the beginning, since again, he she beared him a son instead of the daughter like the Bee Gees told her to, you know, in that famous song Bear a Daughter. And so far, nothing has been explicitly said to her that she is currently being suspected. Like it's all just implicitly in these actions where he's kept her at a distance rather than saying, you know, we don't trust you. And I don't think it's until this next chapter where that really comes to kind of the forefront of her realizing why things have been so awkward between her and the staff in general. Good point. Yeah. It's a stretch, but I think it's it's it's plausible, I suppose. Sure. With all the stressors going on. Because we yeah, they always talk about like the the Benny Jesseret and the mentats as being like these essentially like almost superhuman type abilities. Thinking machines. But they are still human. And again, as you said in the next chapter, we get some more discourse on how that humanity can cloud someone's abilities. So next on we get some more conversation about the carry-all, the the lost crawler to the worm, and all that kind of stuff. But uh they get this. We get some talk about the banker saying, as judge of the change, do you challenge this? And again, Kines' internal monologue, that pale skeleton of a man knows this is the kind of infraction I was instructed to ignore. So we get the the idea that Kynes is kind of uh serving several masters here. You know, he acts like a freeman, he is a imperial civil servant, all this kind of stuff. So he's he's kind of it very much gives me like kind of dances with wolves' eyes, you know, where you have this guy who's gone native, and he's still maintaining the pretense of loyalty to the Imperium. Whether that is true or not, I don't think we know. But it seems that he's certainly leaning one way more than the other. I think was it that one sentence they said uh when they were flying in the Thopter? Is that uh the Imperium is a long way off from Arrakis. Something to that effect. Yeah. So it does become one of those things. So kind of going further here in the dinner conversation, this is now when Jessica starts to more deeply analyze all the guests because she starts talking about espionage, counter-espionage, and kind of identifying these sorts of traits in the people that have attended this dinner. And so they kind of talk through the general layers on how they address that. So, first, how to separate this element for your analysis in the beginning through interrogation patterns that portray the inner orientation of the interrogators, and then secondly, by close observation of language thought orientation of those under analysis. So basically, people who have studied kind of these techniques will kind of uh elicit certain patterns that would only be noticeable again to people who have studied these things. It's it's very much like, you know, if you've studied chess to any sort of degree, you'll recognize a variety of openings, be like, okay, I know exactly kind of what they're trying to do here. Hopefully you can take kind of the proper measures to mitigate it to, you know, whatever purpose you're trying to achieve. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so the person that she starts to focus on specifically is the Guildbank representative. And she kind of questions, like, oh, has he taken sides against House of Trades with the Harkinans? And as she's kind of thinking of this to herself, she kind of starts to be like, okay, if he has, then he'll start doing, he'll start shifting the conversation next to something innocent, but with ominous overtones, she told herself, it's his pattern. And so he even goes on to say, like, I enjoy watching the flights of birds on Arrakis. All of our birds, of course, are carrion eaters, and many exist without water, having become blood drinkers. So again, literally just doing exactly what she had kind of predicted that he would do if he had been studied in this field and had been kind of aligned with the enemy. And it does have ominous overtones, right? Absolutely. Blood drinkers, right? Blood being like the stuff of life. Mm-hmm. Also being, you know, kind of the form of water in the human body. So yeah, it's uh it's definitely got that vibe as far as exactly what she was expecting.

Speaker 1 38:34

Yeah.

Michael Kentris 38:34

And kind of at this point we're not sure about the still suit manufacturer's daughter, but she's kind of talking with uh the banker, and she refers to him as Susu, which, you know, he again provides this anecdote about how uh the water pedlers will cry out Susu Suk, and because he's a financial advisor to the water pedalers union, you know, kind of ties together. And everyone kind of laughs at the anecdote, but uh she notices then like uh this young woman kind of spoke on cue to allow him to continue with this anecdote. So she kind of assumes that she is also associated either with the Harkinems or at least with this banger. Yes. So yeah, there's some some back and forth here, and Paul gets involved as well. We've been kind of getting hints that Paul also has this this uh you know Ben A dresser at training as far as being able to identify when someone is not speaking the truth completely. And so he decided to play the foil. Um again, right? They love using their kind of dueling metaphors, I think, in this in this story. And says, Do you mean sort of these birds are cannibals? And the banker says, That's an odd question. Merely that they drink blood, not doesn't have to be of their own kind. And then Paul says, It does not an odd question. So I Just find it interesting, right? That he's this, you know, teenager essentially, and uh he's kind of pushing back on this water magnet in such a forceful fashion. So And right, it kind of does it rudely here. Yes. Where it's just this like you come right up to the edge of giving offense. Most educated people know that the worst potential competition for any young organism can come from its own kind. And he deliberately forked a bite of food from his companion's plate and ate it. So, right, uh very illustrative. And uh Yeah, the banker stiffen scone at the Duke, and the Duke says, Do not make the air of considering my son a child.

unknown 40:38

Yeah.

Ecology Dreams Versus Spice Economics

Michael Kentris 40:39

And then, yeah, most of the people that we care about uh basically really much approve of it. Again, when the Duke, the Duke likes it. Uh, and then the uh smuggler that we referred to earlier, Tuek, he also kind of grins at this kind of jab at the banker because obviously, you know, banker soft. Right. His water soft, water fat flesh. That's right. And then Kynes, he kind of adds his point to it as well. He talks about how blood's an inefficient energy source. And then the banker kind of, you know, starts to tow that line of rudeness very strongly. It's like the banker put down his fork, spoke in an angry voice. It's said that the Fremen scum drink the blood of their dead, and kinds tries to take on a lecturing tone. He's like, not the blood, sir, but all the man's water. It ultimately belongs to his people and to his tribe. It's a necessity when he lived near the great flat. Uh, all water's precious there, and the human body is composed of some 70% water by weight. A dead man surely no longer requires that water. And basically, you know, they talk a little more here. And at one point, the banker says, You've associated so long with Fremen that you've lost all sensibilities, the banker rasped, and kinds looked at him calmly, studied the pale, trembling face. Are you challenging me, sir? And that's kind of when things take a tone shift, where the banker is like, No, of course not. And not so insolar host and hostess. And Jessica notices basically this man is terrified of Kynes. And ultimately, you know, it very much does seem like a threat where, you know, are challenging him that there will be a physical duel of some sort to a presumed death. Right. And so that that is the thing, right? Is that officially Kynes is an ecologist, the planetologist, a civil servant of the Imperium, but in reality, he is this man living in the desert with this hard and kind of honor culture type of people. So if this was like just a regular civil servant, perhaps the banker would have been able to get away with saying such things, but he is essentially speaking to a freeman, and you know, duels are on the table. Mm-hmm. So yeah, the banker immediately backs off. He says, I meant no offense, if offense was taken, please accept my apologies. And kind of like freely given, freely accepted, and thing the tension kind of dies down. Yeah. So And I love this observation from Lady Jessica. As the conversation resumes, you know, a brittle edge to it. Now she thinks Kynes would have killed him without hesitating. He was a casual killer, and she guessed that this was a Freeman quality. So, right, it's it's one of those things that she like, again, right, she's able to read all these people. And that's again, right, just why I'm a little like, would she not really have recognized the Duke was acting deceptively? But um But I think this is a a good example of kind of illustrating like what is like our first taste of perhaps like Freeman honor culture. Um maybe not the first, you know, there were there was the other scene earlier with uh Stilgar. But uh certainly it's kind of painting a further picture, if you will. Absolutely. And so Kynes kind of again talking with Lady Jessica here appears to kind of give her uh not necessarily a coded message, but a message that does require some sort of decoding on her part. So the newcomer to Iraq is frequently underestimates the importance of water here, and you are dealing, you see, with the law of the minimum, with the law of the minimum, of course, being capitalization. And so she heard the testing quality in his voice and said, Growth is limited by that necessity which is present in the least amount, and naturally the least favorable condition controls the growth rate. And so she sensed a hidden message in kind swearance, but knew she was missing it. And she says, Growth, do you mean Arrakis can have an orderly cycle of water to sustain human life under more favorable conditions? And then this is kind of when conversation kind of explodes over the idea that what we can, you know, make Arrakis habitable, we can introduce water on a much larger scale, and it's just like impossible, because obviously, you know, that would, you know, financially ruin most of these people at the table, the water magnet in particular. But uh they they bait very much, like kind of going back and forth, like, well, in theory, you know, it is possible. Yeah. Now I thought this was interesting. I don't know if you did a search for this, but whenever I see something capitalized, I'm like, is this a real thing? Yeah. And it is. It is in fact a real thing. It's uh Liebig's Law of the Minimum. So this was initially written up by Carl Sprengel in the 19th century, okay, and then popularized by Justus von Liebig. And it's essentially what they're talking about here, that growth is not total resources, but by the most limited resource. So I find it interesting. They also link back in some of like there's actual calculations here for our calculus-inclined uh colleagues. And they they reference uh something that I am familiar with, which is the the Michaelis-Menton equation, which is more about uh biochemical enzymatic reactions. And um, it's it's just, you know, it's that sprinkling of reality and versimilitude that gets really enhanced when you say, oh, this is a real thing. And it makes sense, right? Like this is just plain old agricultural philosophy that's been around for at our time now for over 100 years. And uh, I don't know. I it's just a nice little touch there. It's one of these things where it's like, how much did uh Frank Herbert already know about like agriculture and ecology before writing this book? I'm not intimately familiar with his background, versus how much did he study in preparation for this kind of writing specifically? It's always an interesting thing looking at an author's background and kind of seeing how their experiences shaped them as far as the amount of detail and and so forth. I think I got good examples like Herman Melville with all of his stuff about whaling and Moby Dick, which, you know, not everybody finds the most interesting thing, but it's certainly very detailed. And again, right, it's it's one of those things where if we look back even further in the science fiction genre, like say like like Jules Verne, where unfortunately he he kind of mostly fabricated a lot of his scientific facts, but at the time there wasn't as much fact-checking. So it's uh I don't know, I just find it an interesting thing, and it kind of is that division between like hard and soft science fiction um that we see more in modern sci-fi, but I don't know. A little diversion there. Sorry. No, no, I I agree. It is very interesting sometimes when uh writers are going to incorporate kind of an area of specialty that they are actually well versed in, uh, because it does lend a little more not just like credence, but yeah, like it seems much more realistic in the writing. So I know right now I'm beginning Babble by RF Kwan, and I believe she is or did complete a PhD in linguistics or linguistics-oriented field. And so there's extensive discussion about like etymology and just language in general, and it does feel very, very real and well researched, and uh, it does give it a very nice quality to the writing. Dice. Yes, back to the text. Yes. So uh so again, right, we are getting more shifts in conversation. So we're kind of into our ecology, uh, economics phase of the conversation. Um, which sounds dry, but I thought it was very interesting. So they they're talking about like the what would it take to set up a self-sustaining system? Kynes says if we can get 3% of the green plant element on Arrakis involved in forming carbon compounds as foodstuffs. And they kind of are talking, and we see Kynes kind of gets excited and very engaged with this topic as expected, as the, you know, planetologist for Arrakis. And they they kind of talk about these unusual chemical interchanges over large surface areas. And um, they're doing some small experiments, and they talk about something called the Tansley effect. Uh, this one I don't think yes, uh it's just another real thing describing a positive feedback loop where researchers working independently share their findings and build on each other's work. So it's supposed to be kind of a attacking a problem from many angles with different independent labs, and then as you get results, you share this with the other labs and they work off each other's results. Like kind of the epitome of collaborative, decentralized scientific inquiry, I suppose you could say.

Speaker 1 49:38

Okay.

Duke’s Exit And Paul’s Test As Host

Code Words, Canley, And Shifting Loyalties

Midnight Disturbance: Idaho’s Fall

Michael Kentris 49:39

You know, as opposed to like now where everything's funneled through. You know, you you work in the scientific field as well, Will, from a different avenue than myself, but you know, a lot of journals are very, I'd just say restrictive and sometimes you gotta pay to read. Pay to play, buddy. That's right. So yeah, it's uh it's become like a multimillion dollar industry as far as academic publishing goes. And you know, authors get off, get on my soapbox for a second. Authors don't get paid, reviewers don't get paid, the journal gets paid by you, the sucker. And uh it's yeah, it's uh it's a bizarre system, and they do a terrible job of actually gatekeeping credible scientific information uh in my own field. You know, there was a little big controversy about like Alzheimer's research in recent years. And uh yeah, you know, it's just like, well, what what are you even doing for us lately? You can't even like verify things properly. I don't know. Anyway, I'll get down off my soapbox now. Unless did you want to step up their will No, no, I I think I think that's sufficient. I yeah. I agree with everything you said. So So yes. Yeah, one sentence, and that that's enough to set me off. I need to get myself under control here. But uh yeah, so the the Duke presses Dr. Kines here. It's like, is there enough water or not? And he just says, there may be. So and then just because like he's faking uncertainty. So yeah, like what why is he being duplicitous here? We don't know, right? We know that there's these these research stations, as was just referenced here, with uh this kind of Tansley effect here, and all these small little scientific stations. Gives me a very Star Trek flavor with the scientific stations. But but yeah, I I don't know. It's uh we don't know what the motivations are yet at this point in time. There's something going on, it has not yet been revealed. And before we can learn more, kind of like, uh, maybe we should talk about this another time, and then the Duke has some soldiers come in, whisper, whisper in his ear, and he's like, I gotta go. Paul, take over as host for me if you please. And ultimately, yeah, we don't know right now what the issue is that arose, but uh basically the Duke's like, oh, nothing important, don't worry about it, just stay here until we're given the okay that things are safe to go. And so, yeah, people people are a little concerned because obviously, you know, there is a very real concern about, you know, people coming to attack or just general danger in general on Arrakis, but Paul noted the code words in his father's message guard safe, secure shortly. The problem was security, not violence. He saw that his mother had read the same message and they both relaxed. So again, it doesn't seem like there's any crucial, imminent danger, but just that something of notice had popped up that the Duke needed to personally attend to. Yes. And then again, Paul tries to kind of go further with the water. Please go on with your dinner. I believe Dr. Kines was discussing water. It's like, may we discuss it another time, Kines asked. It's like, by all means. So we get uh this uh Butte tries to get someone to or someone tries to get the banker tries to get Butte to lead another toast for the boy who must be treated like a man. Right? So kind of like a bit of a jerk thing to say. Absolutely. Again, right, kind of treading that edge of uh polite. And basically we get instead an anecdote from Paul about a drowned fisherman. And this is uh I think this was interesting because he has to explain to some of the Arakeen natives what uh all these things, right? With like a fisherman, drowning, ship. And like like we were just saying earlier, right? If a culture does not have a thing, there is no need to have a word to describe that thing. And so he he's explaining this like this immersed in water until dead, drowned. And one of the uh women says, What an interesting way to die. Um again, very strange. Again, this anecdote found wounds on his shoulder from their claw boots that they wear, that uh meant that another drowning fisherman had tried to stand on this poor fellow's shoulders in the attempt to reach up to the surface to reach air. The banker asks, Why is this interesting? And Paul says, Because an observation made by my father at the time, he said the drowning man who climbs on your shoulders to save himself is understandable, except when you see it happen in the drawing room, and I should add, except when you see it at the dinner table. And uh basically this is like makes everyone quiet. Uh and then we start again. The smuggler uh 2X starts laughing. Um yeah, it's uh basically he just basically insulted this guy saying, like, you know, you're trying to kill this other guy by throwing someone else like under the bus, essentially. Yeah. Yeah, no, I I do appreciate that because it's very much like it's not subtle in the slightest, but again, like it's yeah. It everyone seems to respond pretty positive to it. I feel like part of it is like he's excused since he is so young for it. But then uh the banker kind of like, is it a trade's custom to insult their guests? And then before Paul could answer, just glean forward, sir, and it's like my son displays a general garment and you claim it's cut to your fit. What a fascinating revelation. And so it's like, that was just a general comment. Why do you take offense to that? Right. But uh again, yeah, we get like again, it's just kind of ill illustrative that the family has all these code words that are dropped into conversation to indicate in this case, prepare for violence. And we we hear that uh Lady Jessica has her Chris knife strapped to her leg. So she's like ready to basically pull a knife on this guy if he tries anything. Yes. Yes. But yeah, and uh we get some interjections here from Tuek and Kynes, and it's obvious that their support is shifting in favor of the Atreides family here. Yeah. So it's uh it's one of these subtle political shifts that you know we heard with Kynes' inner monologue during the trip to the uh the crawler and back that you know he's starting to become fond of this family and you know having some charitable thoughts towards them, and we get now some actions where he's he's acting on those feelings, essentially, saying that these seem to be honorable people and so on. I like this phrase here. Uh Halleck had joined the party to keep the numbers even. And uh he says, in our society, people shouldn't be quick to take offense. It's frequently suicidal, which again, right? This whole conversation is just like laced with barbs and the potential threat of violence kind of throughout. So it's it's just very thick, right? It's one of these things where it's like everyone's just sitting here, right? Yes. Nothing's happening, but yet everything's happening. So yeah, he uh kind of after that comment looks at the still suit manufacturer's daughter, so doesn't have a name. And he basically like, Don't you think so, miss? And she's like, Oh yes, yes, indeed I do. There's too much violence, it makes me so that just kind of goes on and on. And Jessica saw the near-perfection of the girls' act. I was like, uh, she's not just an empty little headed female. They had planned to lure Paul with sex. So just again, just another another undercurrent of, you know, manipulation machinations going on here with this dinner. So yes, they uh kind of forces the banker to apologize again. He says, like, oh, I must have drunk too much, your wines are quite potent. Um, but you know, his his tone did not match his words. There was venom beneath it. Uh when strangers meet, great allowance should be made for differences of custom and training. Uh the custom part, fairly neutral, the training as a little bit of a loaded thing. It's like basically saying like you're you're uncultured, uncouth. Uh at least to me it does. Absolutely. And we get this little bit here. The Duke has sworn Canley. So again, like kind of this uh imperial chivalric code of honor and kind of like vendetta, essentially. And I like this he will leave no Harkonen agent alive on Arrakis, of course, and the conventions naturally support him in this. Is this not so, Dr. Kines? He says, indeed it is. So they've already said that they know this uh this one character here is a Harkonnen agent, and she's basically saying that none will remain alive on Arrakis. Mm-hmm. So you know. Right. No, the the hint slash very obvious threat, and like, hey, we know that you are probably an agent, so be careful. We get a little more discourse here about the the deep desert, the southern regions, very dangerous, treacherous, very little water. Um again, we get some more ecologic descriptions here about soaks and sipwells. A soak is a place where water seeps to the surface or near enough to be found by digging, and a sipwell is a form of soak where a person draws water through a straw. So it is said. And again, I like this elaboration on the so it is said, right? It's it's a very mythological turn of phrase, you know, like uh like rumor has, you know. And again, it it fits Kine's character very well, I think, because we keep getting this juxtaposition of the man of science with the you know prophetic revelation. And so Lady Jessica actually comments on that internally and she says, It is said, what a curious speech mannerism, if only they knew what it reveals about their dependence on superstitions. So again, it's one of these things where if you're reading attentively, you pick up, but the the author does drop these little breadcrumbs in there as well through our more astute character's perceptions, so that um so there are some clues there for us. Yes. And then shortly after, A. Just got gets a note from the Duke, and she announces, You'll be delighted to know that our Duke sends his reassurances, the matter which had carried him away has been settled, the missing carry all has been found. And so she says that a Karkin agent and the crew overpower the others in a flune machine to a smuggler's base, hoping to sell it there. Both man And machine were turned over to our forces, and she kind of acknowledges Tuwek as it seems like he was probably either him or someone in his kind of employ had assisted them on that matter. So kind of, yeah. Uh reconfirming kind of our suspicions in that previous chapter of like why did the missing carry all go missing? Right. And so the coded part of the message, uh, they tried to get the Harkinans tried to get in a shipment of las guns. Do you go lasguns or las guns? What's what's your preference there? I like las guns. It almost looks like the word lasagna. Um, but not nearly as cheesy. We've got these weapons getting smuggled in here, right? Very unreliable. And we know from previous discourse and also mentioned here that if you fire a las gun at a shield, everything explodes. The gun, the shield, the bearers of both objects, and uh in a quite impressive fashion by all description here. So, like, what what is the purpose of this? Does this mean there were other shipments they made it through? But you know, again, right, it's this whole feints within feints within feints. And you kind of wonder, like, well, what have we missed? Was this a true venture? Was this a false venture? Was this covering for something else? And so, yeah, it's a you know, a little question to end the chapter, essentially. Right. And then Paul's like, Oh, I never doubted that father would find the carry all. Like, once he saw begins to solve a problem, you know, he solves it. And it's like, this is a fact that Harkin's beginning to discover. Jessica thinks to herself, he's boasting, he shouldn't be boasting, you shouldn't be boasting as uh if you're gonna be sleeping deep underground as a precaution against las gods. Yeah, yeah. So And that's how we end the chapter. The end of the dinner. That's right. A lot of stuff happened there. Yes. But um I think it sets the stage well, right? So we get this feeling that that the Duke is trying to change some of the culture on Arrakis, right? He's also embroiled in this sort of insurrection movement from the Harkinans, as well as kind of these different uh you know, knife in the dark type plans, right? The assassination attempt against Paul, and all these other little things that are kind of hinted at in the the periphery. So, you know, his and as they've said explicitly, his position is unstable. So here he is trying to exert his influence, but everyone knows his position is unstable, so how much will go along with it is very uncertain, I think. Absolutely. So we get a shift in scene now. It's the middle of the night, 2 a.m. She Lady Jessica hears this disturbance, walks down the hall, and she basically finds two guards restraining Duncan Idaho, who appears drunk, drunk, drunk. Very drunk. So apparently he'd been drinking spice beer, which is much more potent than regular beer, I would presume. It's yeah. I do think it's also interesting that again, like considering the scarcity of water, that they're able to brew beer at all on this planet. Right. So yeah, you know, because I always think, you know, there's four four key ingredients for for beer according to the German Reinheitsgaboat, which is water, yeast, barley, and hops. So what is sponge beer? Who knows? Mysterious. But Yeah, it's you how are you gonna drink like you know, think of like uh you know, like British pub culture where you drink like, you know, a half dozen pints or something. Well, it's smaller beer, right? But uh that's a lot of liquid. Yes. So is it really expensive here? I don't know. The the economics of spice beer intrigue me. So anyway, so we get Duncan Idaho. He's drunk, drunk off his rocker here. He is ranting and raving about, you know, my my swords my sword was first uh blooded on what was it, Gunnar? Uh talking about killing men for the Duke, blah, blah, blah, right? What kind of place is this? You know, basically it sounds like he hates it here. And uh Dr. Yui was summoned, he shows up and uh, you know, tries to uh get him straightened out here. Yeah, a little stimulant shot. They got shots for everything in the future. It's uh very again, very, very Star Trek-esque. Uh, you know, give him a little hypospray here. But uh no, they give him a a a drink of, I think, like coffee or something like that. Yeah, something. They just call it caffeine, but yeah, I assume it's coffee. So so this kind of all is going back and forth, and she's like, why is he drunk? She slaps him across the face, she says, This is no way to act. Now drink this, that's an order. And he says, I don't take orders from a damn Harkinin spy. And so this is interesting. Yui stiffens and whirls to face Jessica. I imagine this caught your attention as well. Absolutely. Again, right? We keep skirting around this. Like, does he almost blow his cover right here? But then her face goes pale, and suddenly she's like enraged, and she's like using all of her BG skills to calm her outward race. You know, she is in fact staying alive. And uh so it's this again, right? It's like almost caught him. Not quite. Mm-hmm. It's just like, oh, it's been you know such a tease like this entire time. Yeah. Again, yeah, just constantly screwing around it. What is she heard over heard one of the guards saying earlier, right? They were always calling on Idaho for surveillance of the ladies, and she remembers Idaho has been watching her. She's been under surveillance, so it all just like clicks epiphany. Yes. And um, yeah, so basically this is where she like she gets a little angry uh here, very angry, and she summons through for a hawat uh immediately. Yes. And then has them lock Idaho in one of the rooms in this building to sleep it off. Yes. So uh so yeah, she kind of goes to her sitting room, gets everything, you know, gets herself squared away, calmed down with her, you know, meditative techniques and so forth. And we get this uh this jousting session between uh Thufer and Jessica. Oh, it's so good. But yeah, I do appreciate real quick, like when she gets to her room, she's like there's a whole paragraph talking about how she like is organizing, positioning everything to kind of assume command as soon as someone will come in through the door. Right. Very uh what's the word, meticulous and very intentional about everything she does here. And yeah, there was this one line here, she was suddenly very conscious of the crisp knife in its sheath on her leg. She removed the sheath, strapped it to her arm, tested the drop of it. So, like how fast would she be able to draw it? So, yes, she is preparing for potential violence here. So eventually he comes to the door, he knocks, he enters, and then she watched him without moving from the chair, seeing the crackling sense of drug-induced energy in his movements, seeing the fatigue beneath, his roomy old eyes glittered, his leathery skin appeared faintly yellow in the room's light, and there was a wide wet stain on the sleeve of his knife arm. She smelled blood there. And so Howitt immediately is aware of like the fact that Idaho kind of spoiled this whole deception. It's like that drunken fool of an Idaho. Yes. Yeah, and there's all this kind of back and forth, right? It's like, I know you have your spies, like, you know why you're here, you know why I'm asking you these questions. You know, don't don't pretend otherwise. But yeah, they start, answer me one question, are you now a hearkening agent? And he's like, you dare insult me so. And she's like, sit down, you insulted me so. And uh she immediately knows it isn't Hawaii, right? She's able to read the signs, right? She's registered him, all that, all that kind of stuff. So she's like, now I know you remain loyal to my Duke. I am prepared therefore to forgive your affront. And uh we get this repeated thing, is there something to forgive, right? Thoufer has no regret for having suspicion of her. Yes. Which kind of uh leans into kind of like that mentat like human thinking computer kind of thing, where it's like it was the logical thing to do. I have no apologies for for my logical conclusions. Right. It was only logical. And so then we have kind of an internal monologue here from Jessica where we learn, I'm sure there's gonna be very important later on, that she is actually a few weeks pregnant with the Duke's daughter. So she has not told the Duke, she has not told anybody, it is still a secret at this time. Right. So yeah, that's that's quite a revelation. And it just kind of dropped in there, like a throwaway line almost. And she was like, is there a traitor? Who could it be? It's not Garney, not Duncan, their lieutenants aren't important enough. It's not you. It can't be Paul. I know it's not me. Dr. Yuey, shall I call and put him to the test? And Hawat says, You know that's an empty gesture. He's conditioned by the high college. That I know for certain. Not to mention that his wife, says Jessica, was a Benny Gesserit slain by the Harkinans. So anyway, haven't you heard the hate in his voice when he speaks the Harkinin name? And Howat says, You know I don't have the ear. So applying that he knows a little bit about what some of her abilities are. But as we will soon see, not all. Yes. And then again, like, I'm prepared to forgive much because of that loyalty she said. And again, I must ask, is there something to forgive? Like you said earlier, just again, like, I'm not gonna apologize for doing my job. Right. Right. Yeah, yeah, he can he's pretty firm on that. I don't think he ever apologizes this whole scene. No, I don't think so. No. But uh you know, we get this thing with uh Duncan Idaho, uh, you overindulge, and basically she's like, I don't think this is just that. And you don't see this drinking as a symptom, my lady speaks riddles, and she's like, apply your mental abilities to it. Uh sounds very derisive to me. I can tell you in four words, they have no home, and uh they have no basically they disagree on this, and she's like that they fear the Duke is failing them in this new world. And so So yeah, they kind of go back and forth on this. You know, this is you know, it's traitorous thinking. It's like, is it traitorous to identify the disease? You know, basically calling herself a you know physician of this symptom here. Yes. And so since, you know, they're not making really any headway in this conversation right now, she kind of thinks to herself, will I have to shock him surreally, she wondered. He needs shaking up something to break him from routine. And she kind of antagonizes him a little bit because he's like, She asked, then you've already convicted me in terms of like being the traitor. And it's like, of course not, my lady, but I cannot afford to take any chances, the situation being what it is. And she kind of reposed here, a threat to my son got past you right here in this house, she said, Who took that chance? Right. And he's like that gets him fired up a little bit. Yes, yes. And so again, he's like, I offered up my resignation and to the Duke. It's like, but did you offer up to me or to Paul? So just again, just further antagonizing him, making him more angry about the situation. Yeah. And so they go back and forth a little bit, like is it the lasguns? And he's like, Thufer's pretty adamant, it has to be a traitor. Right, they have to observe most of the forms. There has to be a traitor. Right. The the atomics, right? We keep getting these hints at atomics and how they're like incredibly illegal.

Speaker 1 1:11:36

Yes.

Jessica Vs Thufir: The Voice Unleashed

Michael Kentris 1:11:37

So yes, that we know that this thing exists, but that it is like verboten, essentially. So whether that will come to play later on or not, I think remains to be seen. But they all seem very confident of it, but they also seem very confident that Dr. Yui is not the traitor. So we shall see. So yeah, again, they keep kind of doing this back and forth, and so basically at this point, Lady Jessica kind of tries to turn the conversation to how they are kind of each kind of competing for the other's position in real relation to the Duke. So she's like, hey, I love the Duke, you love the Duke. Obviously, we are at a position where we could each take the other one out. So someone's probably setting us up against each other. And he's like, You accuse me of whispering baseless suspicions? Baseless, yes. And yeah, just kind of going further and further on how she's trying to advocate that she is not the traitor. So that, yeah, this is like a fairly long conversation about that. Like you're trying to like, you know, basically gaslight me about my abilities as a mentat after accusing him of, you know, falling prey to his emotion, caught in his reason, and so on and so forth. Um basically uh they go back and forth, and she asks him, Why have you ever made full use of my abilities in your service to the Duke? Do you fear a rival for your position? Um I should jump back just one paragraph here. Uh she thinking of the Duke's men, right? Because she's still on this idea of the homelessness and the stress amongst the men. Yes. Rubbing together their woes in the barracks until you could almost smell the charge, like burnt insulation. And I love I love this again, right? There's this this uh enhances the versilitude here. They're becoming like the men of the pre-guild legend, she thought, like the men of the lost star searcher and polaros, sick at their guns, forever seeking, forever prepared, and forever unready. Which I think kind of speaks to the fact that like you know if if you're always on like a code red, you know, then you're gonna get just run down, essentially. So that's all. That's all I had on that one. But uh but basically he's like, I know some of the train they give you Ben A Gesseret, and he trails off and she's like, go ahead and say it, Ben A Gesseret witches. So we we know that there's this uh what's the phrase, uh, prejudice against the Bene Gesserit for their kind of manipulative ways. I kind of think of this like you see this a lot in in works of fiction where you have if you have an organization of of women, they're often mistrusted. Uh like a another great example from modern fiction would be kind of uh the eyes to die in a wheel of time. Yes. You know, where they're like manipulative and like they take an oath not to lie, but you know, you can't trust them still, even despite that. So it's it's one of these kinds of things where it's like they are sworn to serve, but what is the aim, right? That that service might include the destruction of you for the greater good. Yes. So it's one of those things where you necessarily can't trust them, and that's that's where Thufer, I think, is coming from. Absolutely. So, yeah, he mentions that I don't trust you beneath motives. You may think you can look through a man, you may think you can make a man do exactly what you want. And she kind of like puts him in his place where whatever rumors you've heard about our schools, she said, the truth is far greater. If I wish to destroy the Duke or you or any other person within my reach, you could not stop me. And she kind of like has this thought in the back of her head, like, why do I let Paride drive such words out of me? This is not the way I was trained. So she's always losing her composure a bit. Like this this whole suspicion of her has definitely shaken her drastically. Right. And she notices then that like Thufer kind of like reaches beneath his tunic where he keeps his tiny projector of poison darts. And they're like, okay, we need to dial things back a little bit. Let us pray violence shall never be necessary between us. Worthy prayer, he agreed. So they kind of talk about their relationship, you know, her and the Duke as it respects to its people, like their surrogate parents, and he's like, you know, you're not his wife. That which is uh right, we know from previous conversations is a sticking point for her, like kind of sticks in her crawl. And you're like, but you won't marry anyone else. So again, right, she kind of revs him up a little bit here, again, kind of so that he leaps from his chair, and then she just shouts, uh, I have not dismissed you, Thufer, and his legs just fall out from under him. And uh she smiles without mirth. Now you know there's something of the real training they give us, and uh we find out about this this ability that the Benegesseret have, where they're able to command people with nothing but their voice. Yeah, I have in my margins just the voice in all caps. Right, right. Which, yeah, I think uh it shows up earlier in the movie than what we have in the book here. But uh but yeah, it's one of these things. I I think it has shown up earlier in the book when the the Reverend Mother Paul. Yes. That's a good point. Yes, Paul Paul had experienced it. So yeah, it's it's very interesting here. And uh she calls it the the fist within the Benny Jesseret glove. Few glimpse it and live. This was a relatively simple thing. You've not seen my entire arsenal think on that. So again, right, they're they're having this very frank and like it's moved from kind of these shadowed words into something much more frank and revealed, I think, at this point. Yeah, I and just real quick, because I have this one line highlighted, and I think it's fantastic. I have said to you before that we should understand each other, she said. I meant you should understand me. Yeah, that was a good one. I already understand you, and I tell you now that your loyalty to the Duke is all that guarantees your safety with me. Yes. No, that's that is a great line there. Yeah. So and right, so they keep going, and you know, Thufer's still not convinced that she's not the traitor. You know, he's not willing to admit that there is no chance that she isn't the traitor, and uh, she calls him tenacious, and he says cautious and aware of the error factor, you know, as the mentats put it. So basically they they wind up their conversation here, and again, we get another reference to the bull and the duke's father as Thufer is walking away, and we get a little more clue as to how the Duke died. So apparently he had been a matador of some nature. The fierce black beast had stood there, head bowed, immobilized, and confused. The old Duke had turned his back on the horns, cape thrown flamboyantly over one arm while cheers rained down from the stands, and then Thufer thinks I'm the bull and she the matador. So a couple layers to that, I think, yeah? Yes. Um, so one, it sounds like the old Duke had been basically killed in a moment of pride.

Speaker 1 1:18:42

Uh-huh.

Michael Kentris 1:18:43

Like gored in the back, would be what I would suppose from what we hear here. So kind of the way I was interpreting it, actually, is that wasn't necessarily the moment that the old Duke was killed, but it was kind of a display of the Duke's prowess, like, even though there is this immediate, very real threat of the bowl, the description of it being immobilized to confused, like, it's not a threat at this point in time. But it's it's very much the way that you know she is positioned also with Thufer now. Like, even though obviously he has his poison darts, even though you know she has shown herself to be superior in basically every way, she like has turned her back on him, is like, all right, you're not even a threat to consider at this point. That was kind of the way that I interpret it, at least. Interesting. Yeah, that's a good point. We don't know if this is the the bull that killed the old Duke. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Correct. That's yeah, there is there there is, yeah, that's a good point. There is some vagueness there. It's like, does is this the instance where the Duke kills where the matador kills the bull or the bull kills the matador? So I actually I like that a lot, Will. That that introduces introduces a lot more grayness uh to to the interpretation of the description. Very nuanced. So moving into chapter 18. You're still there? I'm still here? Alright. Sorry. No, no. You were so still I thought you were frozen. No, I was just queuing up the next chapter. Okay. So so we get this Durge for Jameis, which I don't know if I recollect that name just yet. Time will tell. Do you remember that name? The name is not familiar to me. Okay. So I I don't know. This this has it has the feeling of portentousness to me. You move in a kind of interesting. Songs of Muaddeb by the Princess Urulin. So I'll be curious to see who Jameis is as we progress through. But um it's an interesting thing. Uh a lot of themes there. But maybe we'll come back to it when we meet Jameis. Yeah. And or his death since it's a dirge. So anyway, we we switch again to Duke Leto here, and he is reading a note from a Freeman messenger who had uh brought it to the outer guard and then left before he could be questioned. The note read, A column of smoke by day, a pillar of fire by night. What do you think of that? Well, in and of itself, it doesn't mean a whole lot to me right now. Uh obviously the pillar of fire does kind of give up a lot of kind of imagery from the Bible, you know, with you know the representation that he kind of manifests as yeah, a burning bush or things of that sort. But yeah, a column of smoke by day, a pillar of fire by night. Yeah, I don't I don't know. Anything that you interpret from that just from current context? So it's it's definitely uh a biblical reference from my perspective. So in Exodus, after the Israelites leave Egypt and pass through the Red Sea, God leads them through the desert in this form as a a pillar of fire and a column of smoke. So so they're following this through through the desert essentially. And the the desert or the wilds in in kind of the Bronze Age period were not just like once you left civilization, you were entering an area that was kind of infested by by demons and unclean spirits. And so it wasn't just the physical danger, but there was also spiritual danger kind of around you on all sides. So it's it's very interesting that they use this. So this particular reference suggests to me something or someone leading someone else through the desert, you know, from an area of danger to presumably safety. Okay. Which kind of makes sense with what is going to be coming pretty soon. Right. Cause the Duke literally says, What does it mean, he wondered? I shouldn't say he thinks it. But uh but yeah, so so we get things start happening really fast right now. Like this is uh like we've been a lot of talking, a lot of background laying, and now stuff is getting real. I'm trying to avoid swearing for anyone listening with children. But uh but yes, like things are happening right now, and so we get this description. Yes. Anti-fatigue pills, you know. I feel that sometimes, you know. Mine's just a s mine's just coffee, but uh sometimes I feel that thin feeling also. Yes. Yeah, the pills were beginning to wear thin. It had been a long two days since the dinner party and longer than that since he had slept. So yeah, he hasn't slept in a long time, probably since you know that one. So he landed on the planet, maybe. Potentially, yeah, absolutely. And so yes, is kind of contemplating now whether or not he should end this deception that he has with Lydia Jessica. It seems like it doesn't really serve a point at this moment, and he wants to make sure that things can be rectified between the two of them before the moment has passed. Right. Spoilers. Yeah, I know, right? So um but yeah, so very, very unfortunate. So he he hears this strange muling side, he adjusts his kinjul, his dagger, and his shield belt and starts investigating. So he's going down this service passage and he sees something in the distance, comes closer, finds that it is a body. It's uh the smuggler Tuik, who has been stabbed in the chest, and he's dead. Got a wet stain down his shirt. Still warm.

Speaker 1 1:24:25

Mm-hmm.

Ominous Signs And Biblical Echoes

The Betrayal Revealed: Remember The Tooth

Michael Kentris 1:24:26

Now he hears the sound, and he gets like who killed him, why is he here? He still hears that mewling sound, and goes ahead a little further, finds one moving, painful slowness, gasping, mumbling, and it's uh it's the shadow of Mapes. So again, she also has a dark stain on her back, and she says, I'm not going to read it as written, but uh it's you killed guard sent, get took escape, my lady, you, you hear no. And then she flops forward, dead. Yes. And he's just, who? Who has done this? Who killed the guard? And Tuik had Jessica sent for him. Why? Just so many questions running through his mind. And then he has kind of like this spidey sense tingling, and before he can do anything about it, he gets shocked and kind of numbed up, and he sees Dr. Yui in the open door of the generator room. And I think um, now we've talked a lot about shields in the previous few chapters. His shield was off, and he had mentioned specifically because it dulls your senses, so he was kind of on high alert, and he was too slow to flip it on for this, right? This projectile, it might have protected him potentially. Although sometimes they're like slow darts, so they're like slow enough to pass through the shield. Who knows? But uh but yeah, you feel the sense of a missed opportunity in terms of like the decision. So he sees Yui standing there, right? He's he's starting to go numb, and uh he hears the generators are quiet. Right? So the shields are down, we're wide open, um, and he sees, you know, Yui walks towards him, he's got the dart gun, puts it away. Paralysis reaches his legs, he slides to the floor. Yui's got a look of sadness on his face, and uh he says, the drug on the dart is selective. You can speak, but I'd advise against it. So, and again, right, like everyone said for like the last however many chapters, like it can't be Yui, he's conditioned. So, right, we don't really get a lot of explanation as to the the how of it, but a little bit as to the why. Yes. So, yeah, basically, Yui kind of goes on there are things which will make greater demands than this, touching the diamond tattoo on his forehead. I assume the the conditioning. So I find it very strange myself and override on my pyretic conscience, but I wish to kill a man. Yes, I actually wish it, and I will stop at nothing to do it. And he's like, Oh, not you, my dear Duke. I wish to kill the baron. So again, it's it's this idea that more than following the orders or conditioning of the Imperium is this single-minded desire to kill the Baron because he killed or did something to his wife. Right. And so we get this somewhat long discourse on a tooth. So remember the tooth. Remember the tooth. Uh um, it's like you can't handle the tooth. But so he had previously replaced a tooth after an accident, it sounds like, at Narkal, a fall, I assume. And what he's going to do is basically put in like a poison capsule tooth, but it's not like a typical poison capsule like we think of like with spies or stuff, but one that will like explode with a poison gas that will fill the room. And so he's going to make the Duke into his assassin, essentially, to kill the Baron. So, yeah, the idea essentially is that since Yui is aware of how much the Baron wants to be present at the Duke's downfall, that he will be there in person at some point where the Duke will be able to crush the tooth and basically poison gas attack the baron and anyone else in the room. And I I do appreciate kind of like the manic single-mindedness of Yui here. And you will remember the tooth. The tooth doctor Duke Leto Atreides, you will remember the tooth. I like this. Yeah, you I made a Shayatan's bargain with the Baron, which again, right, you know, it's like a devil's bargain, essentially, right? Uh I believe that's like the Arabic word for like uh an unclean spirit or uh like Satan, essentially. I think I think it shares a root with it, but I'd have to double check that. I feel like that's one of the names that Robert Jordan uses for the the dark one in the wheel of time as well. So even though I wasn't familiar, I was like, ah yes, the dark one. Right, right, right. So um but yeah, uh and basically Duke Leo's like, What you know, he refuses and is like, ah, you mustn't refuse, because in return I'm doing a thing for you. I will save your son and your woman. And no other can do it. They can be removed to a place where no hearkening can reach them. And he's like, How? He's gonna basically like fake their deaths and then you know secret them into the desert. So yeah, uh, that's that is the trade that um that they're making here. Yes. Remember the tooth, Yui hist. The tooth. Yes. The shadowy hall narrowed to a pinpoint with Yui's purple lips centered in it. Have you noticed so many people in this book have purple lips? What's that about? That's a good point. Um I don't know. It kind of evokes kind of like this sickliness almost, just in terms of like a like a sensuality or some sort of habit-forming substance or something. Yeah, I don't know. Uh very like wormy, you know. Some books will describe like his his whose lips move like worms or leeches or something like that. I don't know. It's it's kind of gives you like a an icky feeling a little bit to an extent. I can't quite put it into words, but yes, so uh I feel like uh we've gotten our curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal moment here for for fans of Firefly. You you know what I'm talking about. But uh yeah, I mean what are your what are your thoughts on this? So again, right, we we've had this projected for like almost the entire book, and now it's happening. So where do we go from here, Will? What's uh what's your impression so far? I think it's great. I I feel like it does a few things here. So because obviously, you know, that dinner scene, I felt like even though there was a lot going on, the pace was definitely a little slower as it's all dialogue, kind of like back and forth. But with Thufer and Yui, these two scenes in particular, I feel like now is when like the emergency break on the car is being let go and we are gonna start rolling down the cliff. Right. Yeah, it's like right, that tension that's been building up for the last, you know, like according to my my e-reader here, like 25% of the book uh has to go somewhere, right? We are we are in the rising action. So something is going to be happening here. And uh we are very close to uh the end of book one, as they call it uh in the table of contents. So I think we may not get all the way to the end of book one next episode, but I think we're gonna be pretty close. Lots of, I mean, right, things are happening. They're happening fast. I think we're gonna get a lot of stuff in the very near future. And yeah, we'll see what happens. And I think also something else that's very exciting is now we're finally going to be kind of running off the rails, so to speak. Like we do not know what's coming next beyond like what this initial portrayal has kind of entailed up to this point. So this is as far as the plan has been projected. So if and or when things do change from the the Harkinans plan, that is going to be the point where we lose kind of our prophetic vision, if you will. So it'll be much less projective and a lot more unpredictable, at least from a reader's perspective. Absolutely. Any other final thoughts, Will? No, just looking forward to yeah, seeing what comes next. Awesome. Same. You know, it's always I think you, even though I, again, right, I've read this a couple times, you pick up nuances every time. And uh yeah, it's there's there's been a lot, especially in this detailed reading with you, that uh that I'm picking up that definitely I glossed over or didn't pay sufficient attention to. And so you really do get a lot of foreshadowing here. And I think like many great books, uh rereading does does bear fruit. So I feel very fortunate in that in this case. So uh thank you, dear listener, for making it through this somewhat long recording. I know we're we're kind of racking around 90 minutes on most of these, which you know, let us know. Is that too much? Is it not enough? Do you want more? You can find us, we're online on X at Brothers Reading, and you can always send us an email at brothersreadingbooks at gmail.com. Let us know. What are your thoughts on uh these chapters? Are we are we off the rails? Are we missing important details? Are we glossing over things that you'd like us to talk more about? Send in your questions and your comments, and uh, you know, we'll we'll try and uh address those as we go if we get any feedback. So, Will, as always, always a pleasure to talk with you, and uh I'll see you again next week. Likewise, looking forward to it. All right, take care, everybody. All right, bye.