Dune Part 7 - Escape Into the Desert

Today we continue on into Book 2 of Dune, Muad'dib.

Stone halls get traded for sand and storms as Dune’s focus snaps to survival. Paul and Jessica must step carefully as they learn the ways of both the desert and the Fremen. 

Transcript

Kicking Off Book Two Of Dune

Michael Kentris 0:06

Welcome back to Brothers Reading Books, your sci-fi fantasy and other literature podcast. We're your hosts. I am Michael Kentris, and I'm joined as always by my brother, Will Kentris. Hey Will, how's it going? It's going pretty well. How about you, Mike? I am doing well. You know, we are continuing our read on Dune, as listeners will know. We're like, what, eight, nine episodes in? Some somewhere in that ballpark. You know, the count will be apparent in the feed uh once we actually get all these published. But uh we are just starting book two of Dune. So uh we kind of gave our thoughts on the first book last episode. And so we're kind of again, continuing our usual format of doing a few chapters at a time. Uh roughly twenty-three through twenty-five. Is that right, Will? That's my count. Hopefully it's correct. Yeah, I know. I I did a search, it's like, does this correlate with twenty-three? Because the as people probably know, the chapters in Dune are not numbers specifically. So uh we are numbering them as we go for hopefully decent reference points. But Will, give us like the 50,000 foot view summary, and again, for those who may be new, this is not a spoiler-free episode. So if you haven't read the chapters yet, go read the chapters, pause us. Alright, you're back, good. So, Will, give us the the summary of these next few chapters here quick. Absolutely. Uh Chapter 23, the first chapter in book two, uh takes off basically from where we left Paul and Lenny Jessica. Uh so it's a point of view chapter from them, who they're still in the desert, they're still waiting on Idaho. Stuff happens, mostly just talking. And then the next chapter, we get to Waiting on Idaho. Sounds like an emo ban from the early 2000s.

unknown 2:00

Right.

Stilltent Reflections And Water Lore

Michael Kentris 2:01

And then uh in the following chapter, we get a point of view with Thufer and kind of the af like direct aftermath of the raids. So he's with some Fremen, and he's got some of his remaining soldiers with him, and then in the third chapter we're covering today, we jump back to Paul and Lady Jessica, and they do meet up with Duncan Idaho and Dr. Kines. So that'll be what we're covering in this session. Yes. So you know, we've kind of been talking about this as we've been going through uh all the chapters so far, and you know, the the first the large majority of the first book just felt like this tension was ratcheting up and up and up. We're now kind of transitioning to like non-stop action, it feels like. Even though I say this as like the entire first chapter we're talking about occurs mostly within a tent buried under sand. But but it's still there's a lot of uh exposition, a lot of I would consider it character movement, even if they're not quite moving, more of a stationary movement, if you will. It is it is a shorter chapter, this first one, and I feel like since it ties in directly with that following chapter, which does have a lot of action in it, I think it's fair to say that yes. There's there is a lot going on, even though right now they're just kind of doing a back and forth about the current state. Would you say it's the calm before the storm? You could say that. Alright. That joke is clear to all the people who have read uh the chapters so far, and they know that it was not particularly good. So we we as you said, we start with uh with Paul and Jessica buried in a tent, a still tent, buried under the sand. So they've been buried by one of these sandstorms, and they're kind of continuing their conversation from the previous child. There's a lot of internal monologues, a lot of conversation here. And right, we we've had the res the revelation that Paul and Jessica are related to the Harkonens. So they're still dealing with kind of the emotional fallout of that also. Right. Yeah, the opening line is literally Paul saying, Now Harkonen shall kill Harkonnen. Uh-huh. And I kind of like the ambiguity of that because we don't necessarily know which Harkonnen is killing which Harkonen. I assume it's him being the attacker, but Yes. I thought that was kind of an interesting take there. Yes, yes. It kind of has a Shakespearean flavor to it. I do like there's a lot of description here, right? So in the recent chapters, like where they had the kit of tools that were in the Thopter, you kind of get all these like names that you kind of have maybe a loose idea of what they might be for, but nothing's been straightforwardly, or I should say, explicitly described. And so we get a little more use of some of these tools during this chapter here. And a little more description of like how how the operation of distill suits works and things like that, depending on your preferences. That may be boring to you. I think it's kind of interesting. But where they they, again, write this focus on water. And they kind of I was reading something the other day where they're talking about, you know, when you're writing, you need to use all five of your senses. And I feel like in this chapter, right, we're getting a lot of description of like the smell and the taste and the feeling of things, right, not just what they look like or sound like, right? Like where he describes taking a sip from the Still Suits water tube, a warm swallow into his mouth, and he thought that here he truly began an arote existence, living on reclaimed moisture from his own breath and body. It was flat and tasteless water, but it soothed his throat. Again, they've been harking harping harkening, harping on water very much throughout this book, which makes sense, given the value on a desert planet. But it has this other kind of semi-mystical implication as well, right? Like your life. Life water, right? The water belongs to the tribe, the water belongs to such and such, right? You pledge your water, all of these kinds of things. And I kind of almost take this where we have this juxtaposition where he says, in Ericine existence, flat and tasteless, but soothed his throat. I don't know if that uh maybe is too deep of a reading, but I think it's maybe a parallel between like the physical and emotional states of our characters at the moment. I think there's a lot of truth to be said there, especially with how with something so important, water does kind of take on multiple connotations beyond just the literal noun of water. So I know in the next chapter uh they make reference to a water decision, and you know, it kind of imparts the uh importance of that decision, you know, beyond just oh, w where are we gonna get water from? So uh I I I do I do agree that you know there's a lot of cultural connotations with water on Arrakis, with the Fremen in particular, and how they deal with it on the day to day. And I start noticing, you know, there's obviously been some of this throughout, but I I feel like some of the prose here is is really quite um beautiful, you know, not to be like overly purple about it. What did she say? She had this uh she had held dreaming hands beneath sand flow where a name had been written, Duke Leto Atrides. The name had blurred with the sand and she had moved to restore it, but the first letter filled before the last was begun. Right, just I I mean the the the implication I think is fairly clear, right? She was unable to save him or make him persist. But just the way it's described in this kind of poetical, symbolical way, I think is very pretty. Absolutely. I mean, we we do see that in a lot of, you know, real real literature as well, just things being lost to the sands of time. So, you know, not only is it s symbolic to him kind of falling beneath the sand and dying, but his name is well fading even now, despite all her best efforts. Right. Kind of echoes like maybe that uh poem by Shelley, Aze Mandias.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Mm-hmm.

Michael Kentris 8:08

For those who are familiar, right, uh I can't quote it off the top of my head. I should, it's a very short poem, but it's about finding a statue in the desert, uh, a broken statue. Look upon these works, ye mighty in despair. Basically, the impersistence of man's efforts. So anyway, we also get after this another reference to, you know, on Kaladin, it was sea and air power. Here it is desert power. The freemen are the key. So again, right, we keep getting this reference to desert power. And I think um this becomes a little more apparent as we go on, where we kind of in the first book, things were much more structured. You can kind of think like more like nation-state versus nation-state. But we're transitioning uh kind of into this desert guerrilla kind of stance as far as like asymmetrical warfare or asymmetrical conflict, if you'd rather. And I think that you kind of start getting more and more of this as the freemen get more and more introduced as primary characters in the story. I don't know. What do you think, Will? Um I hadn't thought about it too hard. But I yeah, no, it it definitely, yeah, the perspective is changing because obviously we did have references to The Desert Power by Duke Leto originally in that first chapter, or not first chapter, first book. And I feel like that's something that Paul is kind of latching on to now. Obviously, he did have kind of a not mental fugue state, but kind of a spiral of both logic and emotion going on there. And this might be one of the things that he's not only grasping onto but sees as a potential path forward for him and Lady Jessica. This desert power.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Desert power.

Pillars Of Fire And Scale Of War

Thufir Meets Fremen Pragmatism

The Bond Of Water Explained

Kynes Revealed And Lines Drawn

Michael Kentris 9:57

Desert power. Yeah, I should have just. There is a metal band out there. I'm not necessarily intimately familiar with their works, but there is a metal band out there called Shy Holud for for those who are interested in such things. In nerdy metal. Yes. So anyway, now to lower the the tone of the podcast, Paul now approaches the sphincter. The tense sphincter, I should say. Yeah, right, so this is a still suit. Water needs to be kept. This is supposed to be a tight seal. Interesting choice of words, not necessarily the one I would have gone for. It conveys a certain impermeability. But uh yes, I just I'm a juvenile at heart. What can I say? Real quick before we go beyond this uh trying scene. I did also like when Jessica heard Paul drinking, she was also kind of feeling, you know, the thirstiness of her own situation. She refused to accept her thirst. To accept it would require awakening fully into the terrible necessities of Arrakis, where they must guard even fractional traces of moisture, pouring the few drops in the tense catch pockets, begrudging a breath wasted on the open air. So much easier to drift back down into sleep. So that's right before the uh sort of the sand dream that she has. And I I think it's very interesting how she's still struggling to reconcile their new situation with wanting to sort of even actually live in that environment. So just kind of procrastinating on handling it mentally, just kicking it down the road. Right. Which is, I think, a completely empathizable reaction to going from, you know, living in a grand house and not having to worry about water to now being on the run, refugees in the desert. Exactly. Yes. Yeah, I mean who wouldn't be in a little bit of denial given the rapid change in status. Yes. So I like this phrase here. She had thought of the compaction tool, right? So this is what Paul is using to help them dig out of the sand. And the other strange instruments in the pack, each of these tools suddenly stood in her mind as a sign of mysterious dangers. I I like that little bit of foreboding, right? Because like these are very specialized tools. You're going into a strange environment, a dangerous environment, and it's like I'm not necessarily familiar with all of these tools or how to use them or how to recognize the dangers that they might be necessary for. So I think it's uh it's a nice little bit of foreshadowing and uh paints a little mysterious picture of things to come. It's very evocative because to your point, it she doesn't know what they stand for, what they're used for, but obviously, you know, if this isn't a Fremen kit designed to survive in the desert, each one does have a very specific, very useful purpose, or you wouldn't be carrying it in the first place. Right. So they're kind of talking about like, well, when when should we try and dare ourselves out? Has you know the storm's probably passed? And they're waiting right to rendezvous with Duncan, Idaho. And uh they Paul is aware of how long, if he was captured and tortured, how long would he be able to resist? And basically says he could hold out dot dot dot this long. So again, kind of those weird mentat type powers of like, you know, internal clock keeping. And again, right, we get all these like very weighty, poetic inner monologue thoughts from the lady Jessica here. For now, my grief is heavier than the sands of the sea, she thought. The world has emptied me of all but the oldest purpose, tomorrow's life. I live now for my young Duke and the daughter yet to be. So just a reminder that she is in fact pregnant and has uh a daughter growing within her. Right. And directly before that also, she mentions Jessica followed automatically, because Paul's kind of you know impatient, like we have to get going. And again, Jessica's sort of dragging her feet because to start acting is to yeah, acknowledge and realize the circumstances. So he's like kind of trying to get her to go and come along, and the line here is Jessica followed automatically, noting how she now lived in her son's orbit. So yeah, kind of like to your point. She's very much just there. She is just kind of following instructions right now. She is out of her element, she is out of her depth, and she is struggling big time. Very true. So as they as they get out, they start seeing these pillars of fire, jet flares and las guns. So some pretty heavy artillery. So we're starting to get, and this kind of was happening when they were listening to the radio transmissions earlier, and now we're starting to get kind of more direct observation from our characters of the perhaps scope of things. And I think that just keeps getting re-emphasized over the next couple of chapters as far as the scale of force that was brought to bear on this attack. Right. And during this sort of exchange of fire, Paul realizes, or whispers rather, pillars of fire, which was one of the things in the note that they had received from the Fremen. Good pickup. Spy Spy. Yeah, Pillars of Fire at night, columns of smoke during day, something like that. Right. Ooh, I like that, Will. That's that's nice. So it's like a three-fold reference there, right? Brings back that Exodus vibe. Except it's instead of being like kind of a thing of guiding you to safety, it's a marker of the destruction of your past. Right. Oof, heavy. Oh, that's that's good. I completely glossed over that. No, thanks for bringing that one up. So, yeah, they mention jet flares and las guns, and then uh they're kind of looking at the destruction that's happening, and Paul mentions like, oh, they're killing anything that moves, and literally as he says that they hear the hiss of thhopters above them. So And that's where we leave them temporarily. Do you find it's hard to say that word? Thopter. It's an interesting diphthong. Ornithhopter, Thopter. Yeah. I feel like I've played enough Magic the Gathering that I'm used to it by now. Yeah. It's like uh people who go to Europe, you know, when they say Barcelona. That's kind of how I feel when I say thhopter. Or the uh new interpretation for how Aerith is supposed to be pronounced in a Final Fantasy sub. The TH instead of an N. The TH, yes. Translation error that they're trying to rectify. It's like, nah. I lived too late for like 15 years with Eris. It's Eris. I know, I know. So we now get another change in our POV here, and we are we're transitioning to Thufer and some of the Atreides military men and some freemen also. But we of course start with another passage from Princess Arulin, this time from conversations with Muadib. I really like this one. My father once told me that respect for the truth comes close to being the basis for all morality. Something cannot emerge from nothing, he said. This is profound thinking if you understand how unstable the truth can be. Which, I mean, this is very like kind of you know platonic, Aristotelian, I think, in terms of gosh, it it may have been Saint Aqu I can't remember if it was Aquinas or somebody else, but uh they said that uh truth is the confirmation of the mind to reality, something to that effect. I might be misquoting who said that, but it's one of these things where you kind of think like, well, what what is reality? What is the truth, capital T. So yeah, it's it's one of those things where you really start to wonder relative truth, subjective truth, all those kinds of things, absolute truth. There's a lot of gray areas there, and it's certainly a lot of opinions as to what is the capital T truth. And I think we discussed something very similar along those lines in terms of justice. So, you know, what is you know right and truth capital J Justice? Capital J justice, yes. You know, obviously it's not going to be justice for another. So I I it definitely has some sort of relativism there in terms of, you know, these things are not one single idea, one single truth, capital T that can be accepted by everybody. Right. And then we kind of get that first line from Thufer saying, I've always prided myself on seeing things the way they truly are. That's the curse of being a mentat. You can't stop analyzing your data. Which, again, even in that short few sentences there, seeing things the way they truly are, you can't stop analyzing your data. But like who is the one doing the analysis, right? There is still a filter there. There is no reality without an observer. So there is, in a way, some might say, no objective reality. I don't necessarily subscribe to that point of view myself, but there's always flavors in terms of the perception of the individual. And so people talk about trying to remove your opinions or your biases from your observations, which is essentially impossible to a large extent. But I just enjoy the contrast between that kind of opening passage and a kind of our opening statement from Thoufer. Right. And I mean that that kind of is exactly what was happening to Paul again towards the end of book one, where, you know, his mind was just running in all cylinders, despite him kind of just wanting to grieve the loss of his father. So it does kind of, yeah, two things there where it immediately kind of contrasts with that opening statement and also just elaborates further on kind of Paul's general condition. Yeah. So I like this, um there's this repetition in the language, right? Like Thufer's thoughts are kind of in a rut almost. They keep going over the same thoughts here. And I just I had highlighted a few brief fragments here that I think emphasize this fact. The size of the attack struck his mind like a physical blow. The size of the attack, for a full attack they expected no more than ten brigades, more than a hundred brigades, ten legions, the entire spice income of Arrakis for fifty years might just cover the cost of such a venture. It might. So there's all of this, like this emphasis of like this was so much more than what they expected. They expected an attack. But uh But yeah, it's uh it's very interesting that there's just like, you know, they underestimated them to such an extent. The the amount of forces, the amount of resources being outlaid on this attack. I I I that's something I also highlighted was the fact that fifty years might just cover the costs. It might. Like even then he's still just not sure of how large the scale kind of of this operation is based on you know what he's personally seen. So again, just kind of making his mental calculations constantly firing. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And then he's still under the impression that Lady Jessica is the traitor. So he still does have this misperception of of the situation, which you know, we kind of Dr. Yuey's internal and external thoughts, as well as the information from the Duke, and we kind of have a more omnipresent view from the other characters, and so we are privy to the fact that he's he's talking about truth and data, and again, this is just re-emphasizing the fact that he has incomplete data and does not know the truth. So we have a character who is supposed to be, for intents and purposes, essentially a human computer and is come to incorrect conclusions in terms of the size of the attack and the person who is the traitor. So perhaps this is to emphasize the failure sometimes of a purely analytical, data driven reasoning. Um I don't know. Maybe that's maybe that is too much of an extrapolation here, but I think it's perhaps we get this dichotomy between these characters who are a little more on the spiritual. Verging on supernatural, as opposed to people who are more kind of in our more traditional, like scientific logic-based reasoning. And we see this massive failure of a purely data-driven reasoning. So I think that's interesting. It perhaps sets up some future stages in terms of, again, what do they call it? Different ways of knowing, uh, whether it's, you know, kind of like you know, different epistemologies essentially. So uh it's kind of interesting that we're seeing the split here between more of a kind of a spiritual, uh religious way of understanding reality versus a purely fact-based. Right. And I mean kind of to that point, yeah. So right now, yeah, we're seeing the fallibility of just a sort of analytical approach. And then I guess to that counterpoint, we have been seeing the fallibility of kind of just the spiritual approach or the Bene Jesserit approach, I guess would be an easier way to classify it, with Lady Jessica kind of you know struggling with everything. And then, you know, obviously we see Paul kind of being the blending of those two paths, and obviously, you know, he's going to succeed, otherwise, there would not be an entire series of Doom books. But, you know, it it sounds like, you know, you gotta take you gotta take both and work together to see success. So after we kind of move out from his internal monologue about recent events, we get this conversation with this uh Freeman leader, which I think is very interesting. You get some more fleshing out of like cultures and traditions, as well as a certain brutal nonchalance with respect to their fighting abilities. Right. I I thought that was very interesting how you know the man is like, oh yeah, the Sarakar, they gave a good fight. Stefer just kind of is in shock and is like, what? What are you what are you talking about? These are like the most elite of the elite. And it's like, yeah, we lost like two or three men, so it was a good fight. Right, right. And we get this conversation where they seem to be almost like talking past one another, right? There's like words. Uh I mean this is a kind of a common thing that you see used nowadays where people are using words that you know, but you you feel that there is an import to these words that you are not comprehending. Um and I like this. Uh you were caught in Siege without your suits. And you know, for those who remember, right, the the sieges are kind of like these these freemen villages in the desert. So basically you're you're caught with your pants down, essentially is how I kind of take it. And you must make a water decision, friend, which that again, right, kind of like has a heftiness. And he follows this up with how many of your wounded would you spend? Which there's a certain casualness to death in this culture also, which I think they referenced previously also. So then we get through for his uh he could see as a mentat that their communication was out of phase. Word sounds were not being linked up here in the normal manner. It's like a lot uh a lot of words to say, like, I don't understand what you mean. Right. Word sounds are not being linked up. Right. So yeah, it was very, very interesting here. But yeah, he's trying to convince this Fremen to help him and his men. And again, he's like, I'll pay you, and he's like, you wish our siding in a vendetta. And again, just a lot of talking at each other, but not necessarily having a conversation, at least not quite yet. Like bits and pieces are coming across, but they're not really fully communicating with each other about what their intents are. So but the Fremenia kind of re-emphasizes again, how can you be responsible for your wounded? They are your own responsibility. The water's at issue, Thufur, how would you have me take that decision away from you? So again, like you as the reader can obviously infer a little bit what he's referring to here over and over about the wounded and water, since we've already learned from bits and pieces earlier in the book about how frequently the dead are used to kind of harvest the water and given to the tribe. Because again, water just being the incredibly rare and valuable resource that it is in this culture. Right. It's not like here where we just bury people or cremate them or things like that. But yeah, uh he was he also mentions this one line here. You think we have the Byzantine corruption. You don't know us. The Harkonnans have not water enough to buy the smallest child among us. So he was kind of where, you know, what about traitors in their midst or things like that? And obviously he's very dismissive of this. I like this, the the Byzantine corruption, right? We tend to think of Byzantine in in our day and age as referencing things that are unnecessarily complicated. But um, the Byzantine Empire, where these terms originate, are also known as the Eastern Roman Empire, which kind of lasted from like what the fifth to the fifteenth century, so like almost a thousand years, became very corrupt later on, a lot of court intrigue, you know, mercenaries, things like that. They were kind of famous for having the the like Vikings would come down to Constantinople as mercenaries because you were worried about local tribes or ethnic groups being unreliable for protecting the emperor. That's kind of the implication here, I think. So it's just interesting, right? You get, again, this ancient reference in this far future setting. Right. And then immediately Thufer, it's just like kind of, yeah, not giving that the weight that he that it deserves. It's like, sure, you say that they didn't have enough water to buy the smallest child among you, but they had the price of guild passage for more than 2,000 fighting ships. And again, this he's he's not necessarily kind of coming to terms with kind of the the general culture or people that he is dealing with now as opposed to what he's historically dealt with. You know, everybody has a price, more or less is kind of his line of thinking. So they come back around to this water decision. Both the wounded and unwounded must look to the tribe's future. So again, kind of giving us a little bit of implication as to the culture of the Freeman, as far as it's more about the collective, less about the individual, which for us in America in modern day very individualistic sort of culture, and not as much emphasis on the collective, which is what you would see historically in a lot of other cultures going back through time, is that there was like, I will do this to to save my country, to save my family, to save, etc. So it may be a little foreign to the modern American reader in terms of the concept, but the idea of sacrifice is very essential, and something that I think gets reiterated a couple of times here. Right. And then kind of as they're going back and forth while they're trying to debate on that, one of the men does end up dying. I'm trying to find the exact passage here. What's his name? Archie. Archie dies. Yes. And Thufer kind of gets now the idea of what it is that this Fremen has been alluding to, as far as you know, all these references to water and everything. Uh, and so, you know, the man dies, and the Fremen's like the bond of water, it's a sign, and we have a place nearby for accepting the water, shall I call my men? So again, Thufer is trying to kind of save his remaining crew that he has left. I think he says at one point that they only have about 20 people out of an original uh 300 men that he had been fighting with. So obviously, you know, they are down on their luck big time. They are half of them, I think they even said are wounded. So they're not in a great position right now, as they're still in enemy territory. And so this is kind of like their only way out at this point is to kind of and then again, like they're they're very hesitant to call it like buying passage. It's it's establishing like this bond, this relationship between their tribe and the Fremen tribe. So right. Ultimately Thufra is like, yes, go ahead, take him. Right. And it is nice. Or I shouldn't say nice. They they do honor this thing, but the men, you know, Thufra's men, uh, don't understand. And um you kind of get this this re-emphasis of a perhaps some sort of class divide between kind of the right, we've been mostly with the upper class characters, and occasionally we've had like, you know, the the military men, you know, they come in when they're rowdy into the one command center in the previous chapter, and we get some more, you know, low, lowbrow speech, if you will. So like we get here, the Freeman says, you know, we have a place nearby, shall I call him, as you said, uh they're going to render Archie down for his water, the man snarled. Is it that you and then the Freeman again, totally misunderstanding. Is it that your men wish to attend the ceremony? So the Freeman think that they're doing them in honor, and the other ones feel disrespected. So, you know, Thiefer has to like kind of push push him back, calm down, so that they basically are aware that that we need to do this for our own survival, and that they they mean well, essentially. And I like this sentence here we'll treat your comrade with the same reverence we treat our own. This is the bond of water. We know the rights. A man's flesh is his own, the water belongs to the tribe. So I think it's uh again, right, a lot of emphasis on on these rituals and the collective good, right? Once once you are not able to use your water anymore, it must be put to use. It's a very pragmatic society. But yeah, right. They they would have to if they want to survive. Right. And then you have one of the uh aids, how its aid is like, are we buying help with Archie's water? And how it's like, not buying, we've joined these people. And yeah, trying again to mend or bridge the gap between these two cultures ultimately for their survival. Right. And I like this sentence here. Uh the Freeman took Howat's arm and pressed him back with the other. We will fight in the time of fighting. He reached and then you get this little weird creature here. Um, a small cage from his robes lifted a creature, a tiny bat. The bat turned his head, and Howat saw its blue within blue eyes. So I find it interesting that even the animals here have the blue eyes. Uh-huh. Kind of spooky, but uh very interesting. So instead of messenger birds, they have messenger bats. That's literally what I have in my annotation. Messenger bat? So they keep going down here and they see they see more people attacking. The freemen are very what's the word I'm looking for? Very dismissive, and they have a low regard for people using shields. And uh they keep talking about uh Sardacar, and so they they're about to get attacked by this Thopter, and then all of a sudden uh we see someone who basically does like a kamikaze run with his own Thopter into them and basically destroys all of them. And the Freeman next to Hohat says a reasonable exchange. Uh, there must have been 300 men in that carrier. Now he must see to their water and make plans to get another aircraft. So again, right, just very pragmatic. And he's like, this was a, you know, he did good, basically. Even though like there was terrible destruction right now. Again, very, very pragmatic. Like, yeah, those are acceptable losses for this type of situation. So as they go on, right, they get attacked again, this time on foot, and the guy who's been talking to him this whole time takes a knife to the throat. Right. It's very it's a very abrupt end. Right. So I mean, I think it just kind of emphasizes this situation where we have this person who he's been kind of explicit, he's been our our stand-in for Freeman culture to an extent. I don't think we ever got a name for him, if I remember correctly. But uh Yeah, no. But uh essentially he's kind of telling us about all the honor and as you said, very pragmatic approach to life and sacrifice, and then he's just gone. So yeah. Easy come, easy go. As they say. And that brings us to our next chapter. That's right. So right, hard, hard a shift away on the POV again. And we are back to Paul and Kynes. And Jessica. And Idaho. And Idaho, yes. Idaho's the one who picked them up, delivered them there.

unknown 34:43

Yes.

Paul’s Gambit: Power, Paradise, Loyalty

Ambush, Sacrifice, And Escape Routes

Into The Storm: Fear And Flight

Takeaways And What Comes Next

Michael Kentris 34:44

He doesn't talk very much. No, no, he doesn't. I feel like up to this point we've only got him kind of insulting the lady Jessica during his uh drunken rambling speech where she learned that she was a suspect, or at least yes, fake suspect. Right. He could tell. I I like this part, right? It's kind of emphasizing Paul's abilities again, is that you know, from the what are they the reckless dash of the hands at the controls. So basically you tell from like the way that the pilot was flying the Thopter, he could tell it was Duncan, Idaho. So he's like hyper aware of everything and super observant. So again, just emphasizing the strange abilities of Paul at this point in time. Right, and so we rendezvous with Idaho, and he has also brought along two Fremen figures, one of whom is the tall sandy bearded Kynes. So they all kind of shuffle into the Thopter because they have to get going here real quickly. One of the things that kind of happens while they're getting in there is you see this huge explosion in the distance. And Idaho lets it slip. Initially, you know, Jessica's like, oh my gosh, was that the atomics? And he's like, no, no, no, no. It was just a shield. So basically, more or less planning that when a Landsgun beam would shoot it, you get a huge subatomic fusion is how they refer to it. So giant explosion. Nice. Alright, so that was yeah, a rare smile touched his round, placid face. Yeah, I I enjoyed that little bit of enjoyment of his own sabotage. Mm-hmm. And so they're they're kind of moving onwards here, and uh, we get these little hints that Paul is he's got a diplomatic way about him. And so as they're as they're kind of going on through here, you know, Duncan offers Paul his shield belt, and uh Paul says, Keep your shield, Duncan, your right arm is shield enough for me. And we kind of get these inferences via the point of view of Lady Jessica, where she's like, How easily he improves the loyalty of his men and you know, so on and so forth. And she kind of makes these observations multiple times throughout his various conversations in this chapter. Right. And I mean, again, it does kind of yeah, speak to Paul's handling of the men in general. Uh, because, you know, obviously in that chapter with kinds earlier in book one, he kind of became enraptured at that point with the idea of Paul being uh the uh Lisan al-Ghaib, trying to try to keep the terms straight of who's right, right. Messiah is wit. And uh, you know, and then during the uh follow-up dinner, kind of further winning him over. So, you know, obviously he would not be here helping Paul and Lady Jessica if he did not have, you know, one, a favorable disposition towards them or two if he didn't think that they were potentially uh these prophetic figures. Yes. So they scuttle into this uh hidden base, and we find out that they are now at one of the Imperial Ecological Testing Stations. Uh what does Paul say? This is one of the stations my father wanted as advanced bases. We get again, we get some kinds internal thoughts as well. It's like his father wanted. Am I foolish to aid these fugitives? So we kind of get some some explication and about like what's what each of them wants. There's kind of this long conversation about are we allies? Do we have each other's interests at heart? And I think there's there's some interesting back and forth about this. Right. And it is interesting because honestly, I don't know if Paul actually believes what he's saying, or if he's just saying what he knows he needs to say to get the pieces to do what he wants them to do. So Kynes responds, you've recognized this place correctly, for what would you make use of such a place, Paul Atreides? And he responds to make this plant a fit place for humans. And then Kynes thinks to himself, that's why I helped them, perhaps. So again, he still has doubts about his actions, you know, he's kind of impulsive acting here in general, but he is acting nonetheless. And I think, you know, that's that's well said, Will. The emphasis on the word humans as you read it there, right, uh kind of echoing back to the Ben A Jesserit's, you know, people versus humans or animals. So it was very interesting that he said the word humans specifically as a a fit place for people. Right. Rather. So there's some implications there that he wants to make this so what does it mean to be fit for humans? That's there's there's like a whole line of reasoning I think you could go down there. As far as like, well, if it's fit for humans but not for people or animals, like the general person who is not a quote unquote BG human, or the an unreasoning human, rather, then uh what would that look like? What does that mean? I don't know. I don't have the answer to that question. Uh it just it just intrigues me as all. Absolutely. So there's a bunch of stuff going on in this uh this nice little kind of camouflage station. They got some machines worn, there's some animal, presumably test subjects, kind of hanging out. And uh one of the Fremen comes in and says, Liet, the field generator equipment is not working. I am unable to mask us from proximity detectors. And Kynes responds, can you repair it? So we kind of just get a little sneaky here of like the reference to Liet up to this point, those have all been references to Kynes. We now can make the direct connection that Kynes is Liet, Liet is Kynes. So again, kind of going back to that dinner scene when Kynes did not seem to be just a simple imperial ecologist. You know, they referred to him as having gone native and everything. You know, this this definitely helps provide some additional context behind how he was acting and talking. Yes. And I like uh I don't know, maybe it's just me being a nerd that we get this reference to a material called plastile, where it's like, what is that? Plastic's not very strong. Steel's pretty strong. This is something that apparently is like resistant to, you know, much damage except for like las guns and stuff like that. But they mentioned it a couple times here. I don't know why. They don't it's just another one of those sci-fi words. They don't give you any explanation other than the contextual implications of it. So I don't know. I I just I like the sound of this word, pastile. It's a good portmanteau. Yes. Yes. Which was it? I learned the other day, portmanteau itself is a portmanteau. Is it? Yeah. I forget of what, so I apologize to our listeners. But essentially it was like uh it was two suitcases that were schmooshed together. So that's what it like would refer to back back in the early, early days of its use. So it was two things stuck together, which obviously is what a portmanteau is in our common use now. But uh anyway, so so they talk a lot about Arrakis and kind of making it a a paradise, but uh Kine says the Imperium sends here only its trained hatchet men, the seekers after the spice. And then the next little bit, I think, is uh is a nice little you know tete tete between these two, where Paul is essentially trying to assert his authority as as the Duke. So he is technically the Duke of Arrakis at this point in time. But but who is there to recognize that authority? So you get this interesting conversation about authority and where does authority come from in their current setting. Right. Initially, Paul refers to himself as a soldier of the imperium, technically one of those hatchet men. And kind of like to your point, you know, obviously his ducal authority comes from the emperor, whereas it seems that Kynes himself, that sort of authority, comes from the people. It does not seem to be, you know, a very singular leader that leads each each of these sieges, each of these different groups seems to kind of be like its own independent functioning tribe, which I guess to an extent does make sense given kind of the ecological setup of everything. You know, it's it's not gonna be easy to establish a singular entity or kind of nation amongst the Fremen, since, you know, with resources being so slim, it's gonna kind of create these divides between different groups pretty readily. Yeah. And I like this little thought from the Lady Jessica here, referring to kinds. There's steel in this man that no one has taken the temper out of, and we've need of steel. Paul is doing a dangerous thing, right? So as she's observing their back and forth here, just like this is risky. But it's uh it does pay off. So we get this, you know, it's like this uh whole nothing ventured, nothing gained kind of mentality. And so Paul says that essentially he is an embarrassment to the emperor, and as long as I am alive, I'll continue to be such an embarrassment that I stick in their throats and choke them to death. So very uh very dedicated here. And again, we I don't know, right, this is if this is supposed to be attributed to Paul. Paul's near supernatural perceptual abilities here. But he says you have a legend of the Lisan Al-Gayyib here, the voice from the outer world, the one who will lead the Freeman to paradise, and Kynes interrupts him and says, superstition, and perhaps, yet perhaps not, superstitions sometimes have strange roots and stranger branchings. And um I think this speaks to kind of this split. Again, uh we mentioned it with Thufer, but I think we also see it with Kynes, where he is an ecologist, he's a man of the Imperium, he's very rational and scientific, but he's constantly having these unbidden thoughts come to his mind of these prophecies from the Freeman culture every time he's observing something with Paul or the Duke or Jessica. You know, essentially he kee continues to deny it, despite what his own subconscious seems to be telling him, which, again, a very interesting parallel to what we see with like the split between, like, say, Lady Jessica and Thufer as two other characters that are kind of between the two of them embodying that same division. Right. I I mean we do see that pretty frequently, yeah, where the emotion is kind of battling with the logic. We have seen that happen multiple times throughout the book, particularly with the Mentats, where, you know, their judgment is clouded because of their closeness to certain events or peer people. So, you know, they're we see that, yeah, we see that with Thufer, we see that, I think, even with uh Peter DeVries, we see that with Lady Jessica, and yeah, we see it here with Dr. Cines as well, where he has maybe not the emotional aspect of it, but he does have this cultural sort of subconscious that refuses to listen to the logical side. Yes, very much so. And so we get this plan laid out by Paul that his goal is essentially to blackmail the emperor after providing or should say obtaining evidence that he backed this attack on the Atreides, because apparently the if everyone remembers the Landsrod Council, very Germany-sounding sort of thing, that the great houses are most worried about being picked off one by one, and so this would be a rallying cry for a potential revolution against the imperial house. And that would lead to chaos, destruction, whole planets being rendered to rubble. But he will provide an option, or uh, as Jessica says, blackmail, and Paul replies, one of the tools of statecraft, as you've told me. But essentially, that he would marry, as the emperor has no sons, he would marry one of the emperor's daughters, and in effect become the heir to the imperial throne himself as recompense, and the thing that he offers Kynes and the Freemen in exchange is his backing to give enough resources to Arrakis to make it a paradise planet. And initially, Kynes is very taken aback by that offer just because, again, the Fremen are very much not going to be bought. So, from the throne I can make a paradise of Arrakis with a wave of a hand. This is the coin I offer for your support. Kines stiffened. My loyalty is not for sale, sire. And Paul immediately recognizes kind of the misstep that he took, and he apologizes. And that I think kind of obviously works in his favor because Kines responds, No Harkin ever admitted error. Perhaps you're not like the Metreides. And then, in response to this new development, he says, For your loyalty, I offer my loyalty to you. So again, kind of not necessarily having the knowledge that we just had with Thufer and the Fremen about building this bond. This is building that same bond, but maybe in a different capacity, you know, as opposed to the water bond, this is a bond of loyalty. Right. Yeah, it's a good parallel there. And uh, you know, Paul goes on. When I say totally, I mean without reservation, I would give my life for you. And we have Kynes, sire, and the word was torn from him, but Jessica saw now that he was not speaking to a boy of 15, but to a man, to a superior. Now Kynes meant the word. So we kind of see this shift over just just a short amount of dialogue here where you know Kynes was kind of because you know, Paul says, like, you can address me as like my lord or sire. And he's like, sure, okay, whatever. You're just a kid. And then we see this transition over the course of their conversation where he's lay out a plan, you know, like Kines essentially says during the conversations, like, I could never trust someone who could conceive of such a plan. And despite that initial statement, we have this transition, like a turnaround, and Jessica comments on this as well. He has the tremendous, almost naive honor, the Atreides sincerity. So this is a thing, right, that the Atreides are known for. They do not break their word, they are honorable people, and he intends to live by that and honor his familial tradition. So the implication here being that like, you know, you can't buy them with promises, but with loyalty and promises of repaying those who show loyalty to you. I think that is kind of what we're seeing here, that these people, I think they mentioned it was for eighty years they were under Harkinin rule, and uh obviously things have been that's that's emphasized several times that preparations have been made, you know, the Harkinans are are beasts, uh, and they're terrible overseers and brutal and et cetera, et cetera. And so they're used to, as they said, these imperial hatchet men, and you get someone here who's trying to emphasize that uh we're not all like that, and some of us do want what to do as right and honorable and good. Yeah, he seems to be making serious steps with Kynes here, but before they can really go any further in conversation, we get another ambush. Why not? Why not? So literally, as Kynes is in the middle of a sentence talking about the Harkinens, and Paul hears the door slam open, and out in the hallway we see violence, shouting the clash of steel, wax image faces, grimacing in the passage. And unfortunately, uh we see Idaho blocking that passage. He's got blood in his eyes, he's got his shield up, and he's swinging around and chopping futile at shields, and they go ahead and shut the door on that because Paul had noticed earlier with the currents in the room that there was a secret passage for escaping. Yes. Secret passage. But uh yeah, I like that uh well, I don't like it, but it's well described. The black goat hair with a red blossom of death in it. Um and then it's just like door shuts. And the doors closed. So I like the this this state this sentence just kind of tickled me. I don't know why. It's like I should have suspected trouble when the coffee failed to arrive, Kyn said. It's like, you know, truer words never spoken. But uh they're basically talking about the door's plastile. It'll take them twenty minutes to get through if they don't use las guns, which they won't do because they're worried about shields and explosions. And so they they crack open this hidden passage and they start running through. And that door's plastile too. So very tough stuff, this plastile. Steve. Sounds fresh. Plastile. Yes. So there's a secret passage and they split up. So Kines goes one way, Paul and Jessica another. And there's these arrows. I thought this was interesting. It goes through some sort of underground maze, and there's these arrows that they're they light up, but then they turn dark once you pass over them. They don't say how or why or anything like that. And I'll be honest, I kind of like when there's these little mysterious things that they don't explain. It just ends a certain element of mystery, to be redundant, uh, to the to the to the setting. It just keeps me guessing, and I I like that. Yeah, not everything needs an explanation. Right. So so Paul and Jessica are heading to this Thopter that's buried away in a cavern, and they say that um there's a storm going across the area. If you ride high, you could survive and escape. So a lot of this is going to depend on Paul's ability to pilot this craft through the storm. And uh I like this part here where uh it's like, what about you? I'll try to escape another way. If I'm captured, while I'm still Imperial Planetologist, I can say I was your captive. So Kynes has got his own plan to get out of here. Mm-hmm. Where will we meet? Paul asked. I'll send Freeman searching for you. The storm's path is known. Hurry now, and the great mother give you speed and luck. Yeah, they go ahead and separate. And Jessica asks, like, where did Kynes go? And Paul responds, he did what any good guerrilla leader would do. He separated us into two parties in a range that he couldn't reveal. Where we are if he's captured, he won't really know. So again, kind of just further praising him and just in general being appreciative of Kynes and his assistance during this time. Yeah. So I like that part, right? It's it's kind of what we were talking about earlier, where we we are getting more of this asymmetric warfare kind of feeling at this point where we've transitioned from the great house to the scrappy guerrilla fighters in the desert, kind of having to hide and strike as the moment determines. So again, as you kind of mentioned earlier about uh Jessica's reluctance to make a move, now we kind of see the same thing with Paul here, where he has a reluctance to move. He knew its cause, but found no help in the knowledge. Somewhere this night he had passed a decision nexus into the deep unknown. He knew the time area surrounding them, but the here and now existed as a place of mystery. It was though he had seen himself from a distance go out of sight down into a valley. Of the countless paths up out of that valley, some might carry Apollotreates back into sight, but many would not. So very interesting. Uh kind of again, hearkening back to his uh weird prophetic mind vision with all the paths branching out, and he's in one of these gaps here. Which at this point, right, there's there's plenty of sci-fi and fantasy novels that kind of use this prophecy ability in their main characters where they they have gaps, right? Or these decision nexus points, as they say here, where there is a decision to be made, and you won't know what the results are until the decision has been made and the quote unquote path has been laid out. So there's like too much instability or too many variances or things like that. Different stories and mythologies explain it in different ways depending on kind of the the system that they've built in their worlds. But I think this is a fairly common trope now. I think it it may have been a little more unique back then, but I think there were still some science fiction novels that dealt with something similar, although I can't recall any specific examples off the top of my head at the moment. I do feel like that does emphasize the fact that up to this point he's been relying very heavily on that prescience in terms of like trying to figure out what path they should take, and now that he has to actually act and do something, he's kind of yeah, having some slight hesitation to make sure they doesn't take a misstep. Right. And he he realizes in this moment that he'd been relying on these this prescient memory, which, right, that's that's a quite a juxtaposition of words there. Prescient, like like for for knowledge, memory, something in the past. So it's as if he had seen these things as a memory that had already happened. Um I don't know. I find, again, right, like good science fiction always has these kinds of weird, uh weird uses of language. I think William Gibson is like a great example of this in in his books like pattern recognition and neuromancer, where he just like he uses words uh in a just fascinating way to paint pictures. So I get prescient memory. I don't know, I like it. It's it's uh it has a weighty feeling to it. Uh anyway, uh he goes on, if you rely only on your eyes, your other senses weaken. It was a Benny Jesserit axiom. So basically saying like I need to stop relying on this so much, I need to be more thoughtful and observant and thinking. So yeah, as you said, essentially. Have to be in the present. The past is gone and the future not yet here. There is only the present. So they get to this thhopter, they start piling it out, you know, it's in this big cavern. And uh they fire it up, it's got uh some certain modifications there to like make it harder to trace, it sounds like. It's a sneaky thhopter. It's a sneaky uh snopter. A snopter. So they they shoot out, they're they're flying there, they see these jet flares behind us, they're they're getting, you know, they're under attack. They're getting traced. So I like this. Their Thopter leaped like a frightened animal, surged southwest toward the storm in the great curve of desert. And as they're going, right, so they're they're like uh shooting these shells. Um, and then I like this, some kind of projectile weapons. You saw a sudden animal grin on Paul's face. They seem to be avoiding their lasguns, he said, but we've no shields. It's like, do they know that? So it's just kind of an amusing thing. So, right, Paul is still a young man. Still fifteen. Yeah. That's right. So he's he's piloting against these, you know, maybe Harkinins, maybe Sardacar, who knows, into a giant desert storm, lots of weighty matters on the line. So, you know, the adrenaline is surging, I am sure. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, they go ahead and fly into the storm. It is beating their Ornithopter apart, and eventually Paul takes them kind of above the storm, kind of riding it into the distance. So, but again, the entire time it's very, very dangerous, very choppy, just, you know, just constantly on the brink of their ship kind of falling apart. And even at uh as he's doing this, he kind of has that Bene Jisra litany going through his head as this is happening. And literally, that's how this chapter ends is him reciting it. Fear is the mind killer, fear is the little death. Yeah. So we get this, like, yeah, it's uh it's ending right in the moment of action here. So a little bit of a cliffhanger for this episode. But yeah, just kind of jump back just a little bit. We initially have Lady Jessica reciting it mentally to herself, that same litany. And uh, she's worried about the sand and all this edging, you know, like wearing down the metal, etching away their bones, etc., etc. I like this uh we have the tiger by the tail, we can't go down, can't land, and I don't think I can lift out lift us out of this. We'll have to write it out. And as you said, they go into the litany, and it's a great ending to this chapter. Very dramatic. So what will happen next? Will they survive the storm? I mean, there's still two-thirds of the book left, so my gut says probably. But uh if if I were to put money down. But uh but yeah, what are your thoughts so far on book two, Will? Like you said earlier, it definitely has a lot more action going on. Just, you know, each each chapter I feel like likes to leave us on kind of a cliffhanger of sorts. So first chapter, we'll have the Ornithopter approaching Paul and Jessica. We don't know who it is yet. And then second chapter ends with Thufer and his crew being ambushed, literally, the Fremen he was talking to getting a knife in the throat. And now here we have Paul and Jessica on the flea on the fly again in the storm, literally just like hoping that their ship's gonna last long enough to blow out through the storm. Yeah. Yeah, and it's been not just action, it's it's wonderfully interlayered. We get a lot of internal monologue. The emotional and mental state of our characters has been like very, I think, well explored throughout this, particularly Paul and Jessica, and Thufer even. Um so we get these little pictures of like what is the like the emotional, mental state of our characters, the political state of the evolving situation with these conversations with Kynes, as well as with Thufer and the Freeman. We get some more background explanation of the Freeman culture and some of their rituals and practices. And so I think we're heading more into Freeman territory at this point in time. I mean, literally and figuratively, as they fly into the desert. So it will be very interesting to see what's what comes next. How how are Paul and Jessica going to interact coming from their background with the Freeman culture? What don't we know about the Freeman culture? Because they've been very secretive so far, talking about how there's no planetary satellites, how nobody goes to like the deep desert, all these kinds of things. So there's a lot of mysterious land to cover, both, again, literally and figuratively. So I think there's some interesting stuff coming down the pipeline, a lot more, I think we're gonna get a lot more Freeman stuff going on. And right, we've got all these prophecies about the the Lisan al-Ghaib, who Paul is essentially explicitly calling himself, or at least intimating that he's going to be doing that in the very near future. So it'll be curious to see if he what kind of challenges he has and what kind of resistance he runs up against as we go forward into like more groups of Freemen, right? We've only had a couple people here and there kind of acting as mouthpieces for Freeman, but we haven't had like a collective group overall just yet. Right. They've always been the minority up to this point. And that's about to turn drastically as they are about to be the outsiders. Right. So yeah, I think this is exciting. It's heating up, if you'll forgive the pun as we move into the desert. And for those who want to reach out to us, you can email us at brothersreadingbooks at gmail.com. You can find us on X slash Twitter at Brothersreading, and follow, like the podcast, uh, share it with your friends who are also big nerds like you. If you're listening this far, that's okay. You're in good company. That's right. Will, any final thoughts otherwise? No, looking forward to continuing to delve through book two. Excellent. All right. Well, we'll talk to you all next time.